2442 or 612126?

[wyreman]

2442 or 612126

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wr1.live

Old client calls me, can I bring a new SA circuit from the main to the adjoining area to the kitchen. Its a condo conversion for her parents.
There is a narrow counter there and it looks like it is missing layout.
I go there and find a fairly good looking electrical job.
But it doesn’t really look like the counter is exactly part of the kitchen.

And I find another outlet 10’ away that looks like the installer believed he was laying out for the 6-12/12-6 layout.
He didn’t really miss anything else as far as I could see. But the counter does look a little like its missing one.

I know the inspector and he really doesn’t want to be unreasonable.

How to present my case that the counter doesn’t need another outlet from the mains?
There is ample power in the kitchen. The family is on a fixed income…

In the kitchen there are 8 cts

• 2 SA cts;
• Disp
• dw;
• hood circuit [great for MW];
• IA refer;
• IA ignitor!;
• and a general lighting

The counter in question is too narrow to prepare food, there is no 24" cabinet beneath.
Its really only used for papers and his diabetic needles. Its got a narrow cabinet below

210.52(A)(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:

(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets that do not have countertops or similar work surfaces

So the kitchen has ample power. The counter would make layout on 6 12 12 6
The nearby counter in the open floor plan I would characterize as not being part of the kitchen.

210.52(C) Countertops and Work Surfaces. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop and work surfaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).
That counter makes a wall layout of 12’ with the outlet at hammer height.
The counter outlet is a combo switch on the general lighting ct, so it is at elbow height which should be ok as per
210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (5½ ft) above the floor
https://iaeimagazine.org/2009/july2009/dwelling-units-no-big-dealright/

The enforcing agency often has to use good judgment and discretion relative to making this determination to ensure that adequate circuitry and receptacle outlets are provided for the anticipated use.
How to present my case that the intention of the installer was to layout on 6 12 12 6 and that 2 44 2 is not the intention of the installer w regards to this adjacent counter? Thanks guys!

 

[hbiss]

Not sure what your question is but clearly the 8' counter should have two receptacles 4' apart on a 20A SA circuit.

As to the cabinet on the right, what room is that? Looks like a dining room? Those receptacles can follow the 6'-12' rule but need to be on a SA circuit also.

Is that credenza fastened in place?

-Hal

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If this is an existing kitchen and they just replaced the cabinets then there is no req. IMO for more outlets.

 

[wyreman]

This is an existing kitchen and the counter is not a part of the kitchen IMO.
Kitchen has plenty of power
The counter is part of something else, the kitchen ended back there, at least to the original installer.
If he wants to plug something in at the counter he can use the 6 12 12 6 layout.
Yes, this would obviously be better w another outlet.
But does it meet the minimum design conditions of


The counter makes layout with the elbow height outlet and 10' to the next outlet because of
6 12 12 6 => 210.52(A)(2) Wall Space the 6 12 12 6 applies because of the cabinet with a counter
if this is not a kitchen, pantry etc.

210.52(A)(2) Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. Wall Space.

Because these fixed cabinets have a countertop, they are considered “wall space” and receptacles are required.

www.electricallicenserenewal.com

elbow height => 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. 5-1/2 feet height

The issue is can he have mercy on them and see this as not a kitchen, as shown in the photos.
I actually did not feel this was any kind of food prep area.
Or does he require a new circuit from the main for yet another SA circuit in a small kitchen that already has 8 circuit.
Kind of a hardship for little benefit to people already paying for inspection visits and 210.63 outlets on the line side of the FAU discos

Yes I know the counter looks like it needs another outlet
but if the narrow counter was not there, we would be meeting layout.
And 210.52(A)(2) Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. Wall Space.
supports exactly this

210.52(A)(2) Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. Wall Space.​

If a fixed cabinet has a countertop then it is included in the 6 12 12 6 wall space measurement.

This is a very tough code section to read, because of the double negatives used in the code language, and just as hard to explain. The struggle is with the idea that a wall space can’t be broken by something that is without something.

According to the revised code language, when measuring wall spaces to determine if they need a receptacle, a wall space includes any space 2 foot wide or more, that is unbroken along the floor line by doorways and similar openings, fireplaces, and fixed cabinets without a countertop or similar work surface.

For it to be a wall space, it can’t be broken by a fixed cabinet having no counter. So, in reverse, it can be broken by a fixed cabinet having a countertop and still be considered wall space.

If the cabinet has no counter, then it is likely a floor to ceiling cabinet where a receptacle can’t even be placed. If the cabinet has a countertop then it is likely that a receptacle can be placed just above the counter and be useful to someone.

In other words, for it to qualify as a wall space and need a receptacle, a 2-foot wall space can’t be broken by a fixed cabinet having no countertop. If the same space is broken by a fixed cabinet with a countertop then it is still considered wall space.

 

[qcroanoke]

Can you just get a piece of wire mold and a wire mold box run it across the wall and use minimum required raceway and box support then remove it after inspector is gone?
I know that is kinda shady but it happens all the time.
I've removed temporary power before because they can't reject what isn't there.......

 

[wyreman]

I know, AHJ actually suggested pulling up from a hallway outlet just behind the tile and putting a little Plugmold under the cab. Its basically ridiculous for these people on a budget and only trying to comply. "because obviously it looks like it is missing layout

 

[qcroanoke]

I know, AHJ actually suggested pulling up from a hallway outlet just behind the tile and putting a little Plugmold under the cab. Its basically ridiculous for these people on a budget and only trying to comply. "because obviously it looks like it is missing layout

I know, AHJ actually suggested pulling up from a hallway outlet just behind the tile and putting a little Plugmold under the cab. Its basically ridiculous for these people on a budget and only trying to comply. "because obviously it looks like it is missing layout

I like that idea.

 

[wyreman]

in fact I believe that was just a hallway and someone put a cabinet there that's why we have 6/12/12/6 layout.
now all of a sudden it needs SA3 and 2442 layout
uff