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250A Breaker in Hospital Switchgear powering a 94A Chiller.

Merry Christmas

Benjamin Matheny

New User
Location
Hampton Roads Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
Im scratching my head on this one. I’m currently looking at a switchgear that has multiple larger breakers, as in 250A -800A. All have an indicator showing amp draw. They all read less than half of the breaker size and have the wire to match THAT amperage. The breaker I’m questioning mainly, is the 250A, it has #4 CU feeding a chiller. I’m replacing the chiller and need to upsize the wire to #2. My question is, how and why is this 250A breaker with #4 CU acceptable? Im looking into replacing the breaker to match the new system, however the whole gear is missing matched this way. Please help lol
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
We are all familiar with the process: Generally, we find the load, select a wire that has at least that ampacity, then select a breaker that can protect that wire. A 250 amp breaker cannot protect a #4 wire. So I understand your question.

However, the rules for motors allow for breakers sized beyond the wire's ampacity, with other means of protecting the wire. I am not an expert on motors, so someone else will have to chime in. They will likely need more information, such as the hp ratings of the motor(s) associated with the chiller.
 

dkidd

Senior Member
Location
here
Occupation
PE
Im scratching my head on this one. I’m currently looking at a switchgear that has multiple larger breakers, as in 250A -800A. All have an indicator showing amp draw. They all read less than half of the breaker size and have the wire to match THAT amperage. The breaker I’m questioning mainly, is the 250A, it has #4 CU feeding a chiller. I’m replacing the chiller and need to upsize the wire to #2. My question is, how and why is this 250A breaker with #4 CU acceptable? Im looking into replacing the breaker to match the new system, however the whole gear is missing matched this way. Please help lol
There is a good paper at


that explains HVAC wire and breaker sizing.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
We are all familiar with the process: Generally, we find the load, select a wire that has at least that ampacity, then select a breaker that can protect that wire. A 250 amp breaker cannot protect a #4 wire. So I understand your question.

However, the rules for motors allow for breakers sized beyond the wire's ampacity, with other means of protecting the wire. I am not an expert on motors, so someone else will have to chime in. They will likely need more information, such as the hp ratings of the motor(s) associated with the chiller.
If it were an instantaneous trip breaker it possibly could be even more than 250 amps. Though you likely never will find such a breaker as part of a panelboard. MCC can be pretty likely, switchboard - maybe. But the chiller nameplate probably calling for a thermal mag breaker even if not so clearly printed. likely calls for a HACR breaker type, IDK if those are made in anything but thermal mag types/
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
There is a good paper at


that explains HVAC wire and breaker sizing.
Couldn't read the article due to a pop-up blocking access.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Couldn't read the article due to a pop-up blocking access.
Allow me:

What Most Techs Get Wrong About Wire Sizing

When a 10-gauge wire on a 50-amp breaker is OK

By Bryan Orr
September 18, 2017

My first job in the trades was as an electrician’s apprentice doing tasks, such as pulling wire, building light fixtures, and moving scaffolding in grocery store renovations. I moved into HVACR and now serve as an HVACR contractor, instructor, and electrician.

Growing up in a family surrounded by electricians, we were always discussing codes and theory around the house. Much of what I know came second-hand through my dad but also through Mike Holt, a well-known electrical author and instructor I now have the privilege of calling a friend.

Over and over again, I have heard HVACR technicians and electricians quote rules of thumb regarding wiring sizing, and I have witnessed and participated in many heated debates on the topic.

Before we get too deep into this topic of wire sizing, let’s acknowledge that while detailed conductor sizing is the job of engineers and electricians (not HVACR technicians), there are many cases where contractors are tasked with assessing whether a breaker or conductor (wire) is adequate in both retrofit and service situations.

During service calls, being able to identify undersized conductors can help resolve compressor start issues or intermittent trips of breakers or fuses. Knowing appropriate and inappropriate breaker and conductor sizes will save you and your customers time and money.

I am certainly not suggesting HVACR techs engage in performing work outside of their skills or licensures, but, in many cases, being able to identify the problem and making the repair are two different things.

RULES OF THUMB​

Many techs will repeat these rules of thumb and rely on them in all circumstances:
“Twelve-gauge wire is good for 20 amps, 10-gauge wire is good for 30 amps, 8-gauge is good for 40 amps, and 6-gauge is good for 55 amps,” and “The circuit breaker or fuse is always sized to protect the conductor [wire].”

These rules of thumb are referring to the amperage capacity or “ampacity” of the conductor (wire) and are often correct. Sometimes, these general rules lead technicians to believe that if an appliance is rated for 50-amp breaker/fuse maximum overcurrent circuit protector (MOCP), you must use 6-gauge wire and a 50-amp circuit breaker.

It’s not that simple according to National Electrical Code (NEC) NFPA 70 for several reasons. Here are some additional factors to be considered:
  • What is the conductor made of? Is it aluminum, copper, or something else?
  • What is the ambient rating of the conductor (wire) and its termination (connection) points?
  • What type of load is being controlled?
  • What other thermal de-rating conditions exist? Are there multiple conductors in a raceway, high ambient conditions, etc.?
  • What is the allowable voltage drop based on wire length? This is not dictated by the NEC but rather by the requirements of the connected load.

PROPERLY SIZING A CONDUCTOR​

When we use a rule of thumb, we are missing two main areas as it relates to the conductor.
Is the conductor aluminum or copper, and is the insulation rating 60°C (140°F) or greater?

Aluminum wire has a lower ampacity than the same gauge copper wire, meaning aluminum must be larger to accomplish the same ampacity job as copper wire. The rule-of-thumb sizes rely on the lowest allowable temperature rating of the wire; in some cases, the circuit may have a higher ampacity if the insulation on the wire and the connection endpoints are all rated at 75°C (167°F) or 90°C (194°F).

All of these ratings can be found in NEC (NFPA 70) Table 310.15(B)(16) in detail, but as an example, according to this NEC chart, a 6-gauge copper circuit rated at 90°C (194°F) has an ampacity of 75 amps while a 6-gauge aluminum conductor rated at 60°C (140°F) has an ampacity of 40 amps.

Of course, there are other considerations in addition to this, but it is clear the rules of thumb we often use can get us in trouble if we aren’t aware that exceptions exist and what those exceptions are.

Keep in mind that for a circuit to have a rating above 60°C (140°F), the wire as well as the breaker, disconnect lugs, and connection lugs in the equipment must all be rated at a temperature at or above the temperature rating being used. If any portion of the circuit utilizes non-metallic (NM) cabling — often known by the trade name Romex® — it must be rated at 60°C (140°F) according to article 334.80 of the NEC.

MOCP VS. MCA​

In air conditioning, we are given a gift by equipment manufacturers on the equipment data tags: the minimum circuit ampacity (MCA) and MOCP or max fuse/max circuit breaker rating.

These ratings on the data tag tell us exactly what minimum ampacity the circuit must be capable of carrying as well as the maximum size the circuit breaker or fuse may be able to protect the circuit against in an overcurrent condition.

Take a look at the Lennox air conditioning condensing unit tag on Page 19. Notice that the MCA is 28.6 amps and the maximum fuse or circuit breaker is 50 amps. This means it is allowable to install this unit on a circuit breaker rated at 50 amps and a conductor rated at 28.6 amps, according to the NEC’s NFPA 70.

I know this goes against what many of you have been told and understood your entire career, but take a deep breath and read on.

NEC article 440 was added because air conditioning and refrigeration systems are different from typical loads, like lights and heaters. Air conditioner compressor and fan motors are largely inductive (magnetic) loads and have different characteristics than purely resistive circuits. Article 440 has specific guidelines for HVAC and refrigeration equipment manufacturers to follow when writing the equipment data tags as well as for electricians when sizing conductors.

There is a lot there, but here are two highlights that directly apply to you as an HVACR professional. This comes from the 2017 edition of the NEC NFPA 70.

440.32 Single Motor-Compressor — Branch-circuit conductors supplying a single-motor compressor shall have an ampacity not less than 125 percent of either the motor compressor-rated load current or the branch-circuit selection current, whichever is greater.

And the maximum breaker size (MOCP) is dictated by the following article from the 2017 NEC.
440.22 Application and Selection (A) Rating or Setting for Individual Motor-Compressors — The motor compressor branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protective device shall be capable of carrying the starting current of the motor.

A protective device having a rating or setting not exceeding 175 percent of the motor compressor’s rated-load current or branch-circuit selection current, whichever is greater, shall be permitted, provided that, where the protection specified is not sufficient for the starting current of the motor, the rating or setting shall be permitted to be increased but shall not exceed 225 percent of the motor rated-load current or branch-circuit selection current, whichever is greater.

This 225 percent of motor load/branch circuit allowance for breaker sizing is to allow for motor starting without nuisance trips while still providing circuit protection against short circuit conditions.

If you hesitate at the thought of doing this math for every system you work on, the NEC Article 110.3(B) states: Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

For every piece of equipment that lists MOCP and MCA, you are given the breaker size and minimum wire ampacity. As above, the MOCP is usually significantly higher than the MCA, but this is to allow for the spike in amp draw upon motor start.

Many will ask what protects the circuit in an overload condition between the MCA and MOCP ratings? In these overload conditions, the overload protections on the motors themselves are designed to protect the circuit. If the overload protection on the compressor or fan motor fails, the windings in the motors have a far lower ampacity than the branch circuit and will fail open or shorted before the branch conductor will fail. In the case of any significant ground-fault short, the overcurrent protector (breaker or fuse) will still protect the circuit.

In some cases, contractors have stated that certain municipalities are requiring that conductors be sized based on the breaker size instead of the MCA. This is not uncommon, but it is usually a matter of a respectful conversation about the above NEC articles. The “authority having jurisdiction” or AHJ is responsible for interpreting the code, and they can make any standard they see fit.

While certain local legislation may supersede the NEC with additional regulations, the NEC is a nationally recognized standard throughout the U.S. It is rare that a building department will ignore entire articles of the NEC when it is brought to their attention in a respectful manner.

The key is to reference NEC NFPA 70 Table 310.15(B)(16) to find the ampacity of a conductor and size that conductor according to the MCA listed on the unit label. When this is done, the conductor will be properly sized according to the NEC.

While no standard is perfect, I have found that knowing the NEC and looking carefully at manufacturer listings and labels can save you time, your customers money, and help keep everyone safe.
 

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
Follow the Chiller name plate for MCA & MOCP. It's as simple as that.

In most instances the minimum wire size to feed anything has to match the breaker size.

But HVAC equipment and motors are a completely different animal. And there may be a few other exceptions.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
how and why is this 250A breaker with #4 CU acceptable?
As been mentioned motors and air conditioning will allow for higher rated devices on a conductor but this combination seems pretty unlikely.

Since the minimum conductor ampacity needs to be 125% of rated current draw on this type of equipment, if the #4 is actually the correct conductor size that would mean the equipment likely only draws 68 amps max. Overcurrent protection would need to max of 250%, next standard size allowed, leaves you with 175 amps most likely being the maximum overcurrent protection allowed for inverse time breakers. Yes you go by nameplate MCA and MOCP but they are usually based on the same rules that apply for motors, as the maximum, but usually tend to be less than what those rules allow.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The issue with motors is when motor controllers are involved, they must have thermal overload protection for the motor, which limits the thermal risk for the conductors feeding it too. So at that point the only thing the breaker needs to do is to protect against Short Circuits. It’s the same thing that an “MCP” (Instantaneous Trip) breaker would do, but you cannot use an MCP in a switchboard, it has to be a Thermal Mag breaker.

It gets a little more complex though when a single piece of equipment has multiple loads as part of it, some being non-coincidental to others. For the most part though, the complex rules behind all of this are boiled down for you when the equipment manufacturer lists the MOCP and MCA values. They did all that work up front for you, so all you need to do is follow their instructions (as dictated in 110.3(B)). So yes, it may seem odd to be putting a 250A breaker on a circuit fed either #4 wire, but if that’s how it was calculated in the machine listing, you don’t need to be concerned.

That said though, it happens sometimes that what the EE decides up front doesn’t match the equipment instructions when it arrives in site. That’s when you might have to intervene. So you should always check. I’ve had that happen twice, both times because the GC “got a deal” on the equipment and nobody checked out the MOCP and MCA listings for differences.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
The issue with motors is when motor controllers are involved, they must have thermal overload protection for the motor, which limits the thermal risk for the conductors feeding it too. So at that point the only thing the breaker needs to do is to protect against Short Circuits. It’s the same thing that an “MCP” (Instantaneous Trip) breaker would do, but you cannot use an MCP in a switchboard, it has to be a Thermal Mag breaker.

It gets a little more complex though when a single piece of equipment has multiple loads as part of it, some being non-coincidental to others. For the most part though, the complex rules behind all of this are boiled down for you when the equipment manufacturer lists the MOCP and MCA values. They did all that work up front for you, so all you need to do is follow their instructions (as dictated in 110.3(B)). So yes, it may seem odd to be putting a 250A breaker on a circuit fed either #4 wire, but if that’s how it was calculated in the machine listing, you don’t need to be concerned.

That said though, it happens sometimes that what the EE decides up front doesn’t match the equipment instructions when it arrives in site. That’s when you might have to intervene. So you should always check. I’ve had that happen twice, both times because the GC “got a deal” on the equipment and nobody checked out the MOCP and MCA listings for differences.
That "good deal" on equipment best be a pretty good deal, because chances are when one ordered the switchboard or panelboard along with all it's components they got a pretty good deal on that as a complete order but adding additional breakers after the fact isn't necessarily that good of a deal and all they did was shift cost to different areas of the project.

I likely can purchase a 250 amp breaker with say the smallest panelboard it is practical to install it in, especially if it is a 480 or 600 volt breaker, for less than I can purchase same 250 amp breaker "over the counter". These manufacturers want to sell such items by the job order and not individually. Ordering it with a panel usually is all it takes to kick in that job pricing.
 

ron

Senior Member
You might see a 250A Frame breaker, but if there is a sensor or a long time pickup adjustment, the trip value maybe less than 250A depending on what they are set for. The wire would be based on the Chiller MOCP or some will go over the minimum code requirement and match the trip rating to the wire size.
 

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
Many time with HVAC equipment the HVAC portion of the job and the electrical portion are all bid on at the same time. The engineer may spec a 500 ton Chiller lets say the spec says Carrier or = by Trane, York or McQuay.

The electrical requirements for those 4 chillers will probably not be the same. The Carrier may have one compressor, the Trane may have 2 etc.

Just like a Ford and a Chevy both drive down the road, but they are not exactly the same and probably have different gas mileage.

Somewhere in the specs there has to be language so that if the electrical feed needs to be changed because a different chiller is used someone has this covered in their bid.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Many time with HVAC equipment the HVAC portion of the job and the electrical portion are all bid on at the same time. The engineer may spec a 500 ton Chiller lets say the spec says Carrier or = by Trane, York or McQuay.

The electrical requirements for those 4 chillers will probably not be the same. The Carrier may have one compressor, the Trane may have 2 etc.

Just like a Ford and a Chevy both drive down the road, but they are not exactly the same and probably have different gas mileage.

Somewhere in the specs there has to be language so that if the electrical feed needs to be changed because a different chiller is used someone has this covered in their bid.
Trane and American Standard are the same thing for the most part though. Both are owned by Ingersoll Rand. I did a VRF job one time, the compressor units out of the box said Trane on them. Inside the control panel was an American Standard label, that you could place over the Trane label if you considered yourself an American Standard installer. I witnessed owner of that company placed them labels on and said something like they are much better now.
 

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
Trane and American Standard are the same thing for the most part though. Both are owned by Ingersoll Rand. I did a VRF job one time, the compressor units out of the box said Trane on them. Inside the control panel was an American Standard label, that you could place over the Trane label if you considered yourself an American Standard installer. I witnessed owner of that company placed them labels on and said something like they are much better now.
Back in the 80s American Std bought Trane. Later on Ingersol bought the whole shebang. Trane and American Std are the same equipment but American Standard is residential and light commercial only.....no chillers etc. We used to buy American Std over Trane it was slightly cheaper for some reason.
 
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