3 way residental garage

[bassphisher]

What is the easiest and leal way to wire 3 way switches in a residential garage?To be a little more specific this person wants to pull travelers and a neutral in with the feeder( both from the house panel to the garage)to wire a 3 way switch one will be located in the house and the other one will be in the garage.As an inspector the problem that I have with this is when you shut the main breaker in the garage panel off there will still be a hot circuit in the garage.At minimum I don't want circuit from the house panel to be run through the garage panel and I believe that their should be some sort of warning label that warns that the 3 way is still energized when the main breaker(in the garage)is shut off.I would like to hear some other opinions.I am sure that this is a common problem.Thanks

[ September 08, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: bassphisher ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 3 way residental garage

You can not run 'romex' in an underground conduit.

Beyond that you could solve the issues by feeding the light circuit involved from the garage panel.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Bob hit it, NM cable can not be installed outdoors.

Where is the problem with having the light fed from the house?

 

[iwire]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Where is the problem with having the light fed from the house?

Code wise not much, from a safety standpoint it would be nice if killing the garage feeder at the main building killed all the conductors in the garage panel.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: 3 way residental garage

I also assumed the garage was a detached building, but looking back over the original post, it doesn't explicitly say that it is.

The inspectors I deal with all know that NM can't be used outdoors, so my guess is that it's an attached garage. If that's the case, where is the code violation? I'm also not familiar with anything in the code that provides for "Warning, this three-way switch is still hot" labels.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Jeff I never said that the live wires left in the panel where a code violation.

Just not a great design for safety.

As far as signage many times warning labels are applied to enclosures that have more then one source of supply.

 

[pierre]

Re: 3 way residental garage

As an inspector, it is great that you are concerned for someones welfare, but the work is code compliant, and should not be retagged because of the way you feel. If this garage is detached, Bob is correct that NM Cable is not permitted in wet locations.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Originally posted by iwire:
Jeff I never said that the live wires left in the panel where a code violation.

Just not a great design for safety.

As far as signage many times warning labels are applied to enclosures that have more then one source of supply.

I agree with you, Bob. I also prefer to design things better than code requires. I'm just a little surprised to be seeing these questions from an inspector, since inspectors generally stick to enforcing the code.

[ September 07, 2005, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Looks like 225.31 would require an additional disconnecting means specifically for the 3 way circuit.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3 way residental garage

And don?t forget the ground rod either!

 

[electricman2]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Originally posted by iwire:
You can not run 'romex' in an underground conduit.

Where did he say it was underground?

 

[peter d]

Re: 3 way residental garage

The OP sure made it sound like a detached garage to me.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3 way residental garage

" posted September 07, 2005 05:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like 225.31 would require an additional disconnecting means specifically for the 3 way circuit. "

What would you suggest ? A switch ?
Is it even a circuit if it has no neutral like in a dead end 3 way?

 

[LarryFine]

Re: 3 way residental garage

How about a non-wired method: use an X-10 switch module in the garage, and an X-10 wall transmitter in the house. Part numbers and sources available upon request.

Note: I do not sell this stuff, so this is not a sales pitch.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Originally posted by LarryFine:
How about a non-wired method: use an X-10 switch module in the garage, and an X-10 wall transmitter in the house. Part numbers and sources available upon request.

Note: I do not sell this stuff, so this is not a sales pitch.

This sounds just like the last guy that sold me a vacuum cleaner. :roll:

 

[allenwayne]

Re: 3 way residental garage

So you bought a $300.00 orex/rainbow/kirby buyer be wear.KLIEN sells a fancy $40.00 linemens but they still are rated as the same pair OF $25.00 Linemans different package same name

 

[bassphisher]

Re: 3 way residental garage

I have been an electrician for 20 years and an inspector for only 6 months.My 20 years of electrical work was all industrial commercial,Inspecting is a totally different job.
This is a detached accessory building that is going to be fed underground with pvc.I had a brain fart on the romex.He could use thwn or equiv.My 2 concerns about this being non code compliant are 1)when you shut power off to the garage this circuit is still hot,so I would like to see the feeder go into a j box before it goes into the panel.The 3 way could be run out of this j box so that it does not pass through the panel.2)A label placed on the j box that states that when the main disconnect is shut off that their is still another source of power.
I thought about the x-10 switches but I did not know how expensive these are.
Another possible solution is a disconnect in the garage with a set of aux contacts that would kill the other circuit.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: 3 way residental garage

This light that is being controlled with the three way, is it on the inside or the outside?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: 3 way residental garage

Technically, 225.30 only permits one feeder or one branch circuit to be installed to supply a separate structure. I suppose you could argue that the switching circuit is not "supplying" the garage, but that's a fine line.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3 way residental garage

225.30(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.

The NEC has covered that fine line.