I'm working on an older house and all the 3 way switches have a 12/2 with ground running between the switches. They used the black and white as travelers and the safety ground as the nuetral that goes to the light. I'm sure this is not code by today's standards, but was it acceptable back then (1970's)? What is the risk of leaving them like this? Thanks
3 way traveler wires
- Thread starter chasdal
- Start date
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 3 way traveler wires
I rather dought it was ever legal.I believe your in a bad situation since you touched the job.It needs changed.Likely what happened was someone goofed on the rough in and this was there way out.
I rather dought it was ever legal.I believe your in a bad situation since you touched the job.It needs changed.Likely what happened was someone goofed on the rough in and this was there way out.
Re: 3 way traveler wires
No this is a friend's house. Other than being lazy and not getting a 12/3 with gnd, why would they do this? This house is out in the country and probably had no code requirements when it was built. In your opinion, should I change them out? It's a lot of work, but I can get to them. There are 5 more (I already fixed one).
No this is a friend's house. Other than being lazy and not getting a 12/3 with gnd, why would they do this? This house is out in the country and probably had no code requirements when it was built. In your opinion, should I change them out? It's a lot of work, but I can get to them. There are 5 more (I already fixed one).
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 3 way traveler wires
Like i said most likely they ran the wrong wire on rough and by time they caught it was too late.Yes it will work but you know its not safe.Might work for 100 years and no problem but your risking that friends life.Change it get a good nights sleep.
Like i said most likely they ran the wrong wire on rough and by time they caught it was too late.Yes it will work but you know its not safe.Might work for 100 years and no problem but your risking that friends life.Change it get a good nights sleep.
Re: 3 way traveler wires
chasdal,
From the description given,this setup is switching the neutral conductor.That is a bad situation.Why?,normally the (hot) conductor is used and if a problem accures, like the switch gets broken,it will "ground" out and trip the fuse or circuit breaker.By using the EGC as a neutral this will not happen,what will happen is the metal around the switch will be waiting for the first person that is grounded to touch it,that will complete the circuit and in doing so injure that person(to what extent,unknown).
There may be other ways around curing this situation,i.e., check out some of the low voltage switching options available it might cut your labor hours down.
Friends don't let friends switch neutrals!!
frank
chasdal,
From the description given,this setup is switching the neutral conductor.That is a bad situation.Why?,normally the (hot) conductor is used and if a problem accures, like the switch gets broken,it will "ground" out and trip the fuse or circuit breaker.By using the EGC as a neutral this will not happen,what will happen is the metal around the switch will be waiting for the first person that is grounded to touch it,that will complete the circuit and in doing so injure that person(to what extent,unknown).
There may be other ways around curing this situation,i.e., check out some of the low voltage switching options available it might cut your labor hours down.
Friends don't let friends switch neutrals!!
frank
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 way traveler wires
Hot fed to first 3-way common two wire with ground fed between 2 3-ways with grounding acting as neutral, black and white as travlers, at other 3-way grounding is connected to neutral from light, and switch leg to light is connected to common at this 3-way.
I don't see where the neutral is switch as in the first post?
Not nessasarly, the grounding conductor could be used as a pass through neutral (not leagaly) and the 14/2 runn up to the light could have this grounding conductor connected to the neutral(white wire) and the hot(black wire) is connected to the common of the the 3-way.
Hot fed to first 3-way common two wire with ground fed between 2 3-ways with grounding acting as neutral, black and white as travlers, at other 3-way grounding is connected to neutral from light, and switch leg to light is connected to common at this 3-way.
I don't see where the neutral is switch as in the first post?
william runkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Michigan
Re: 3 way traveler wires
Ok he has 12-2 wg running from switch to switch but what else comes to the switches each on this could be one major loop say bring power to luminaire box there run to first switch with 12-2 wg running to first switch using only the black for power then 12-2 carrier to next switch then 12-2 to the luminaire using only the black wire to power the luminaire the neautral is already there it will work and if the boxes are properly sized it is legal. But unless we know for sure it will be all guessing at it as the above idea is. So we need more information.
Ok he has 12-2 wg running from switch to switch but what else comes to the switches each on this could be one major loop say bring power to luminaire box there run to first switch with 12-2 wg running to first switch using only the black for power then 12-2 carrier to next switch then 12-2 to the luminaire using only the black wire to power the luminaire the neautral is already there it will work and if the boxes are properly sized it is legal. But unless we know for sure it will be all guessing at it as the above idea is. So we need more information.
Re: 3 way traveler wires
yes, it's like Hurk27 above says. The grounding conductor is used as the pass thru neutral. Sorry I wasn't more clear on the initial description. It took me awhile to figure out what they were doing but the biggest clue was when I saw the ground conductor and the white run up wire tied together. I guess the biggest danger here is that there is no safety ground left in the circuit since it was hijacked to be a neutral.
yes, it's like Hurk27 above says. The grounding conductor is used as the pass thru neutral. Sorry I wasn't more clear on the initial description. It took me awhile to figure out what they were doing but the biggest clue was when I saw the ground conductor and the white run up wire tied together. I guess the biggest danger here is that there is no safety ground left in the circuit since it was hijacked to be a neutral.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 way traveler wires
This not quite true as even if the grounding conductor is still connected it would fault a short in a fixture. BUT! The danger is not that there wouldn't be a grounding conductor but that if it is still there everything bonded to it now has current flowing on it and can be a shock hazard if someone were to be touching it and a short in the circuit were to happen the voltage drop of this bolted fault would be impressed on everything bonded to this grounding/neutral connection. This is why after the main disconnect grounding and grounded conductors must be kept separate.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: 3 way traveler wires
With the addition of arc fault breakers house trouble shooting has become a nightmare.A standard plug tester no longer is usefull on an afci circuit.If there is no load than you can`t test for a neutral to ground fault,major call back issue
With the addition of arc fault breakers house trouble shooting has become a nightmare.A standard plug tester no longer is usefull on an afci circuit.If there is no load than you can`t test for a neutral to ground fault,major call back issue
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 3 way traveler wires
"Maybe soon a manufacturer will come up with an afci tester that is affordable " come on now Allen i know your boss can afford to buy anything thats out there.Unless he is like mine and just won't part with the money
"Maybe soon a manufacturer will come up with an afci tester that is affordable " come on now Allen i know your boss can afford to buy anything thats out there.Unless he is like mine and just won't part with the money
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 way traveler wires
This is also the first test I do when I have a AFCI false tripping.
Allen it's easy, just have a continuity tester handy when trimming out the panel and check the neutral to ground before you land it on the AFCI breaker.
This is also the first test I do when I have a AFCI false tripping.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 3 way traveler wires
Hurk,that might work if we waited to make panel up untill after we trim.Here they want to see panel made up on rough.
Hurk,that might work if we waited to make panel up untill after we trim.Here they want to see panel made up on rough.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 way traveler wires
We trim out the panel but we don't install the breakers because our service get heated up on start of house and that would leave all the circuits with a way they could be energized.
Well that would kind of make it hard to do QC'ing of installed devices but it would show up any neutral that got connected to another circuits neutral.
We trim out the panel but we don't install the breakers because our service get heated up on start of house and that would leave all the circuits with a way they could be energized.
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