3 Wire oven

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Oakey

Oakey

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New Jersey
I've been scanning the archives but most of the posts on my question are a few years old. I am remodeling a kitchen and the existing oven line is copper 6-6-8 SE cable. I need to cut in a new receptacle for it because the old stove just had a whip. Is it ok to use this existing line and keep the 3 wire (w/bare ground) or am I required to change it to 4 wire? Btw this is not a mobile home.
 
You can replace the receptacle with a 3 wire. You are not running a new circuit, so it's ok. If you were running a new circuit, then you would have to use 4 wire recep and cable.

John
 
Existing circuit can continue in use.

Existing circuit can continue in use.

It is perfectly permissible to install a three wire receptacle on that line as long as the conditions in 250.140 are met.

"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment."
 
hornetd said:
It is perfectly permissible to install a three wire receptacle on that line as long as the conditions in 250.140 are met.

"250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.
Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be grounded in the manner specified by 250.134 or 250.138.
Exception: For existing branch circuit installations only where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in the outlet or junction box, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are part of the circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded to the grounded circuit conductor if all the following conditions are met.
(1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived from a 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
(2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than 10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
(3) The grounded conductor is insulated, or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service equipment.
(4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the equipment are bonded to the equipment."
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True but he is adding the receptacle.I think that changes things from existing to new
 
If we're "splitting hairs" (know any inspectors that do that?), Jim has a point.
It can be read both ways.
Just my opinion
steve
 
I tend to think that it is existing. IMO it is the conductors that make the circuit. The equipment at the end doesn't change it to a new circuit.

If this scenario was done in reverse, I doubt anyone would say it was a new circuit. If the receptacle was removed, and a range hardwired in, would that make it a new circuit? IMO, no.

John
 
flick said:
I tend to think that it is existing. IMO it is the conductors that make the circuit. The equipment at the end doesn't change it to a new circuit.

If this scenario was done in reverse, I doubt anyone would say it was a new circuit. If the receptacle was removed, and a range hardwired in, would that make it a new circuit? IMO, no.

John
Click to expand...

I think most inspectors would look at the job and if it was open to pull new wire would want it.If not might let it go.
 
I agree with Flick , just because its open does not mean you should have to change it out .
 
My take on this situation is that it is not a new installation, rather just a replacement of the range receptacle so a new cable would not need to be installed. You are not increasing the magnitude of an existing violation (I use that term very loosely since it can't really be considered a violation since it met the standards of the code at the time it was originally installed). As stated here previously though, it does come down to the wire inspector. I'm sure some will say it is fine and others will cry foul.
 
stickboy1375 said:
And who is suppose to pay for it? the inspector?
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Might be you if you did not figure it into the bid.Might be homeowner.Can almost be 100% sure it wont be the inspector.You might not agree with him and if so you can argue it out or go over his head (winning might not work out in long run ).We have a circuit thats 3 wire,just when does it become not existing (notice i did not say new)? What is that circuit ? Breaker,wire,box,receptacle ? Just what can we change or add before its not existing ? Was the receptacle there before ? No,so then at least part of this circuit is NEW.Can we exstend it ? Change location and reroute it ?Change breaker size ?

OK, have fun,i will watch.
 
If the wire is already installed, meaning your doing a range/dryer replacement and you meet the exceptions of 250.140 then whats the problem?

I think your looking at this too hard, If you coulden't move,relocate or add something the code would state that.... but is does not, so anything goes as far as i'm concerned, but this is code talk, in real life I would change the wire if it were any kind of remodel job....
 
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I must be missing something. The original post says 6 6 8 w/bare ground. Couldn't the 6's be phase conductors and 8 the neutral.
 
Paul B said:
I must be missing something. The original post says 6 6 8 w/bare ground. Couldn't the 6's be phase conductors and 8 the neutral.
Click to expand...

Actually he is saying it wrong.Its not a ground its a neutral.3 wire ranges never had a ground,just a bond from neutral to frame.
 
I stand corrected, I meant neutral. Usually I will replace an aluminum SE cable during a renovation because I have a personal preference for copper. Honestly it's a major pain to run a new cable in this application. I just need to know if replacement is needed due to code or if it's unsafe and I will do it somehow. 240.140 seems to read its fine but if it was you guys what would you do?
 
Personally i dont think the 3 wire system was any big risk.But opinions are not what this is about.Its a bit gray and if the inspector doesnt push it i would let it go.
 
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