30 volt sensed in an open circuit

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ARCORAZ

Member
I am running one set of wire (red, black, white) in a flex conduit. On one side they are capped with wire nuts and not connected to each other. On the panel side, when the black wire is connected to a single pole circuit braker, and the white is connected or disconnected, on the red wire which is not connected to any circuit braker I measure 35 volts with neutral bar. Any ideas how this is possible?

thank you.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Most likely it is 'Phantom Voltage'

ENGINEERING DEPARTMENTBULLETIN No. 88 October 1998 Revised February 2003 Phantom Voltages This Bulletin is intended to address the occurrence of so-called “phantom” voltages, a phenomenon detected during the testing of electrical conductors in the field.

Due to the high impedance of measuring instruments, a voltage reading may be detected on open conductors where there is no hard electrical connection to a voltage source. Conductors that are installed in close proximity to one another, and are capacitively coupled to each other, can cause this a.c. voltage reading. Such a reading could be 2 or 3 volts, or it may be as high as the voltage on the adjacent conductors. This is what is referred to as a “phantom” voltage.

According to Underwriters Laboratories Inc., this can be a harmless reading and can be caused by the high input impedance of the measuring instrument, which places very little loading on the circuit under test. The capacitance is increased as the length of the run is increased. A 50-foot run may produce a pronounced capacitance effect whereas a one-foot sample may not produce any.

Since the “phantom” voltage is a physical phenomenon involving very small values of capacitance, it cannot energize a load or cause physiological damage to a person. Care must be taken to be sure that the voltage reading is a phantom voltage, which is caused by improper use of high impedance multimeters, and not as a result of a cable defect or improper installation, which may result in a shock hazard.

In order to help minimize the likelihood of reaching a wrong conclusion from this phenomenon, NEMA recommends the use of a Listed low impedance multimeter in place of a high impedance multimeter or other high impedance measuring device for testing on open conductors where there is no hard electrical connection. Without a low impedance measuring device, a high voltage reading is an inconclusive indication of possible faults in the cable.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
iwire said:
Most likely it is 'Phantom Voltage'
Agreed, and is why I recommend a solenoid-type tester (aka 'wiggy') when testing for presence of power, and reserve use of a voltmeter for when knowing exact voltage is required. Even then, testing while the supply is under some load, if only a night-light, is better.
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
LarryFine said:
Agreed, and is why I recommend a solenoid-type tester (aka 'wiggy') when testing for presence of power, and reserve use of a voltmeter for when knowing exact voltage is required. Even then, testing while the supply is under some load, if only a night-light, is better.


Larry I agree with this 100%+
 
Phantom

Phantom

I agree with the statements made thus far. This voltage is most likely a induced voltage due to the magnetic field produced from the black and white wire .
I suggest if you can get your hands on Delmar's standard text book of electricity you will find good, educational material on the subject.
Also you did not state if you ran a ground with these conductors, I ground wire run in parallel with your conductors, in some cases can help to eliminate induced voltage.
Dennis
 
Depending on the type of circuit, I would not always recommend a wiggy type meter. The wiggy type meter could have an effect on the circuit itself, and could actually take a control circuit and become part of the circuit, starting a motor or have other very bad situations occur.

There are many new DMM available today that have added within or as an option circuitry that will help to eliminate "ghosting - phanthom readings" and not introduce the meter into the circuit. These new additions to DMMs add approximately 3000 OHMs of resistance to the meter circuitry.
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
Location
Right here.
Pierre C Belarge said:
Depending on the type of circuit, I would not always recommend a wiggy type meter. The wiggy type meter could have an effect on the circuit itself, and could actually take a control circuit and become part of the circuit, starting a motor or have other very bad situations occur.
Well, you gotta make judicious use of the right test equipment for the right situation. I would hope that a guy servicing a motor control circuit would be aware of the hazards involved with putting a jumper wire (AKA, the Wiggy) across certain sections of any control circuit.

The Wiggy, or similar test tool, can be valuable in determining the presence of induced voltage when used judiciously.
 
Marc
I have a wiggy tester, and I like to use it as it is generally more sturdy under adverse conditions, including my callouse way of handling the meter when things get a little crazy.

I would go one step further and say that there are more than not who do not understand how some meters work and how dangerous they can actually be. Their training has only been on the job with someone training them who knows just a little more than the student.
So, if they should decide to use it on control circuits or other wiggy sensitive circuits, than there may be a problem.
 
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