310.16 and temperatures

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yanert

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Would not both these statements be true?

1.. The maximum temperature a conductors insulation can handle, without breaking down will be reached when that conductor is running at its maximum ampacity in an environment of 86 degrees F.
2. The internal temperature of a conduit will be over 197 degrees F. When 4, #8 THHN current carrying conductors are inside it operating at an ampacity each at 44 amps or more in an environment of 86 degrees F.

Just wondering what everybody thought about this statement! :)
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Originally posted by yanert: Would not both these statements be true?
They would not.

1. I would suggest amending the first statement to say that the max temperature (i.e., the max the insulation system can handle) would NOT be reached at a current flow that is lower than the rated ampacity. The insulation system might be able to survive a higher current than the rated ampacity. But nobody could be sure, and so therefore we don?t allow a higher current.

2. I do not know the basis for your statement that temperatures inside a conduit reach 197 F. The second sentence is incomplete, so I do not know what you are trying to say. But the ?ambient temperature? of 86F (30 C) refers to the temperature surrounding the conduit, not the temperature surrounding the conductors within the conduit.
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Yanert
I would add the following,
1. The maximum temperature is based on the ambient plus the heat gain from the current flow. If the ambient is less than 86 degrees, the maximum current can be more than listed in 310.16 by use of the correction factors. By using the correction factors, you will achieve the same ultimate maximum temperature at different ambient temperatures.

2. There is significant debate in New Mexico concerning the temperature inside a conduit, and if that should be the ambient for the conductor. In our case, conduits exposed to sunlight reach an internal temperature of more than 140 degrees with no conductors in them. That leaves little for current caused heat gain.
In answer to your question, the internal temperature of the conduit would be the heat gain from the conductors plus any external heat gain say sunlight, plus the ambient temperature the conduit is installed in, minus any heat radiated from the conduit including that due to air movement, etc. Just because the conductors are at some specific temperature does not mean that the conduit internal temperature will be that, it will likely be somewhat less.

This doesn't address whether the conductor ambient should be based on the temperature inside the conduit or the temperature outside the conduit.
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

In the table 310.16 ampacities are based on not more than three current carrying conductors in raceway, cable, or earth based on ambient temp of 30 c.
Here is what I am trying to shake down. Using a #8 as a example:
If you were to put that #8 in an environment as described above and loaded it to 40 amps, I would like to think that it would have a temperature on the insulation of 60C. If we bump up the amps, or the ambient, the surface temp of the conductor would rise. Or inversely, the amps would fall. So basically, at 40 amps at 30C the wire insulation would be 60C.
I am honestly not trying to be a troublemaker, but am trying to see about some other way to make a few guys understand the reason for derating. A few young guys I work with are having problems and I would like to use this approach. We all know that are biggest worry besides mechanical breakdown of the wire is heat. Heat can breakdown the insulation. So by going to the tables and using a doom and gloom approach it might get the idea across. Also I think this approach would work well for temp ratings of equipment. Put a #8 RHW in a 30C environment at put 50 amps on it; it will run a temp of 75C. Well if you have a OCPD that is rated for only 60C at its terminals the conductor could in fact heat the OCPD up and cause it damage. Also, if you have a OCPD that had 75C terminals it could heat up to 75C at its max ampacity and would start to fry a wire that had insulation rated for only 60C. With my first example stating The internal temperature of a conduit will be over 197 degrees F. When 4, #8 THHN current carrying conductors are inside it operating at an ampacity each at 44 amps or more in an environment of 86 degrees
I was just trying to use the derating tables of 4 current carrying conductors derated to 80% and using the approach if you did not derate, your wire temp would be built up to a point at or over 194. I wrote 197 and should have quoted 194. Sometimes it?s easier for me to take a more practical approach. It?s a great way to learn, but I sure want to be correct if I try and help somebody else out!
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

yanert
I can see clearly now... and you sound correct.


You derate from the column that the insulation is listed in, for THHN you could use the 90 degree column for derating. You're still stuck with the 60 or 75 degree maximum for connections.
Multiple deratings, say 4 current carrying conductors and an ambient higher than 30, would require multiplying by both factors.

This is often a difficult subject to teach especially when someone has done it some way, the wrong way, for years. Good luck.
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

The maximum temperature a conductors insulation can handle, without breaking down will be reached when that conductor is running at its maximum ampacity in an environment of 86 degrees F.
More precisely, the maximum ampacity for a conductor is based on a obtaining a certain "life" for the insulator. Run the conductor at a lower ampacity, and the insulation will last longer. Run the conductor above it's rated ampacity, and the life will be shorter. But the life may still be years.

I think you would have to exceede the rated ampacity by a lot to cause a failure in a few seconds.

STeve

[ December 08, 2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: steve66 ]
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Steve,
I think you would have to exceede the rated ampacity by a lot to cause a failure in a few seconds.
A number often used for wire "withstand" current is ~42 amps per circular mill for 5 seconds. This will result in a conductor temperature of about 150?C.
Don

Correction!!
It should read 1 amp per 42 circular mils for 5 seconds....I did have it backwards...thanks Steve

[ December 08, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: don_resqcapt19 ]
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Don:

Is it possible you have the units wrong? #8 has 16510 circular mills, so 42*16510 would be almost 700,000 amps.

42 amps per mm^2 sounds more like it. That would give 42* 8.4, or about 350 amps. That seems about right to fry a #8 in 5 sec :)
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Yes Steve, I sure think you are correct. I just want to use a worse case example until they get the idea.I have heard somewhere, can't remember where, that for every 1 degree of temp a wire is above its allowable temp, it will take one year off its life.??? Quote from Steve: More precisely, the maximum ampacity for a conductor is based on a obtaining a certain "life" for the insulator. Run the conductor at a lower ampacity, and the insulation will last longer. Run the conductor above it's rated ampacity, and the life will be shorter. But the life may still be years.
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Your doing your math wrong. You would divide the cm of the conductor by 42.25

16510 / 42.25 = 391-amperes for 5 seconds so, using the formula ampere squared seconds:

#8 is good for 391 x391 x 5 = 764,405-amperes squared seconds.

So now if you have a device that trips in 1/4 cylce, the #8 is good for:

Square root of (764,405/.0042) = 13,491-amperes

[ December 08, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

I think one of the best posts I have ever read in relation to this topic was made by Charlie b :

With respect, mweaver, I very STRONGLY disagree with this statement. I submit that the intended meaning is ?year-round average.? I concede that the NEC does not define or explain the intended meaning of ?ambient temperature,? in the sense used by Table 310.16. I would like to see an NEC revision that makes this point clear. However, I take some comfort in the fact that the laws of Physics are on my side.

I have made this point before, and as websparky had noted, you can look up the earlier discussions. Here is a brief summary of the basis for my interpretation:

The hazard that higher temperatures impose on a conductor is an increase in the rate of deterioration in the insulation system.
For every 10 degree F increase in ambient temperature, held for the entire life of the cable, the expected lifetime of the insulation system will decrease by about 50%.
For every 10 degree F drop in ambient temperature, held for the entire life of the cable, the expected lifetime of the insulation system will double.
The relationship between temperature and the rate of degradation is not linear. If a cable spends one hour at a temperature of 90F (i.e., 4 degrees above the de-rating threshold), it may have to spend 3 hours, or even 5, at a temperature of 82F (i.e., 4 degrees below the de-rating threshold), in order to break even (i.e., on the overall average rate of degradation)
The concept is similar to buying a car that is intended to last you 10 years, but that has a gas tank that cannot be refilled. You start with 10 years worth of gas in the tank, but that assumes you burn gas at the rate of a car moving at 30 miles per hour. Once you run out of gas, you must buy a new car (similar to replacing a cable, once its insulation system has degraded too far). If you drive faster than 30 mph for a short while (say for 2 hours), you burn gas faster than the design rate, and you might run out of gas before the car?s 10 year expected life. If you drive slower than 30 mph, you save gas. But you might have to drive at 20 mph for 6 hours, before you can save enough gas to restore the car?s 10 year expected life. Finally, if you constantly drive below 30 mph, you could, in fact, extend the useful life of the car beyond its expected 10 years.

HOWEVER, the fact that you drove over 30 mph for a single hour would not, by itself, drain the gas tank, and render the car useless. Similarly, if you allow a cable to experience more than an 86F ambient for a limited time, without reducing the current to the de-rated value shown in 301.16, that will not instantly destroy the cable. What it will do is to reduce the cable?s useful life by some small amount. You can make this up by keeping it below 86F for an extended period.

ANOTHER HOWEVER: Websparky is right about needing an EE (and a PE, at that), if you want to take advantage of the lower ambient temperatures. The EE would have to be familiar with the Arrhenius equation and the methodology for applying it. The Arrhenius equation is k=A*exp(-Ea/R*T), where k is the rate coefficient, A is a constant, Ea is the activation energy, R is the universal gas constant, and T is the temperature (in degrees Kelvin). It would be no easy task to apply this to a cable?s insulation system. You would also need an AHJ willing to go along with the EE?s calculated results. You are not likely to get both.
The whole discusson can be found here: 310.16 correction factors
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

Posted by Bryan:

Your doing your math wrong. You would divide the cm of the conductor by 42.25
That confirms that the units were wrong. It should be 42 circular mills per amp instead of amps per circular mill. ;)
 
Re: 310.16 and temperatures

holy cow,that was really super! Thanks for showing me that! So nice to break it down to something we can all relate to!
 
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