310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

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mc5w

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I have a lot of objections to the decision to lower the maximum voltage for unshielded cables to 2,400 volts phase to phase. This seems to be based on BS that contradicts actual experience in tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of installations.

In the May 2005 issue of EC&M magazine the reasons given were safety, reliability, and inadequate training. Let's go over actual experience:

1. 120 volts is just as deadly as 2,400 volts and 4,800 volts. Just ask anybody who has died from contact with 120 volts. In fact, most electrocution deaths involve 120 volts. Same goes for getting tossed off a ladder by 277Y480 volts and breaking your neck.

2. Shielding will not stop mice from chewing on the wires. Mice and rats can chew through steel and concrete when they are hungry enough and smell food.

3.a. Tens of thousands of airports have 6.6 amp and 20 amp series lighting circuits that operate with unshielded conductors up to 4,600 volts. This has never been a reliability problem or a safety problem in several decades. You just simply do not work on a series lighting circuit while it is energized. Period.

3.b. The plugs that are used on the primary side of the isolating transformers for individual lights would have to be completely reengineered to work with shielded cables. Same for the isolation transformers for individual bulbs. These products would also have to be backwards compatible with the old unshielded stuff - I would really like to see that done.

I will even take a bet that the airports and Federal Aviation Administration will appeal this change. Using shielded cables would actually create more problems than any that shielded cable alledgedly solves.

4. One reason for using unshielded cable is that you do not need stress cones and so forth at terminations. That is, Keep It Simple Stupid.

5. All failures of 5 KV and 8 KV unshielded conductors can be attributed to the following:

Insulation nicks
Lightning
Old age
Mice chewing on the wires
Insect nests
Somebody working on it energized
Not all of the wires strands in a connection not conducting leading to an overheated connection
Physical accidents such as somebody digging up the line with a backhoe
Sabotage
Suicide
Ferroresonant overvoltage on ungrounded systems which is how 480 volts ungrounded can have 2,000 volts phase to ground - the solution is high resistance or medium resistance grounding.

Now I want somebody to tell me how cable shielding will fix any of these problems.

6. International Exposition Center in Cleveland, Ohio has 4,800 volts ungrounded ( except for the gorund detecting voltmeters ) in 5,000 volt type MC cable that does not have shielding of individual conductors. All of the paper insulated cables installed during World War 2 on this system have been disconnected because they were no longer needed. The rubber insulated cables installed after the war by General Motors have been very reliable. The only cable fault in the past 10 years was that the underground cable to the jet hanger blew out. That was attributed to old age and water infiltration.

A lot of the automotive factories in the Cleveland area also have this type of distribution.

7. The electrical utility in Buffalo, New York has 4,800Y8,320 volts solidly grounded running overhead as unshielded conductors triplexed and then strapped with bare steel wire to a steel messenger wire. Has been very reliable for several decades in spite of sun exposure, salt spray from the roads, yada yada.

8.a.?With the exception of systems that have a spark coil plugged directly onto each spark plug, every spark ignition engine has unshielded cable running at very high voltages.

8.b. General Motors High Energy Ignition operates at well over 8,000 volts.

8.c. Every auto mechanic that there is knows how to SAFELY work on these high voltage unshielded cables. You work on the d@mned stuff while the engine is not running.

9. Most auto mechanics got their high voltage training from somebody other than the U.S. military, IBEW, or Unorganized Auto Wreckers. These 3 places are not the only sources of electrical knowhow. I cannot get training from any of these 3 sources yet there is way for me to get the training.

10. Grainger sells hot line gloves, face shielding, grounding jumpers, the whole 9 yards.

11. My first pair of hot line gloves saved my life 3 months after I bought them. I was removing a rather heavy panelboard cover and 1 of the screw operated blind hooks was wrapped around a 20 amp 120 volts ciruit. The only thing that I could do was to dig a cover corner through some paint on the box and then wait 30 maybe 45 seconds for an alledgedly fast acting plug fuse to blow. That was the longest 30 seconds in my life.

12. 8 KV insulated wire has been used in overhead distribution up to 7,970Y13,800 volts as single conductors in free air because it is resistant to squirrels, tree branches, and other sources of short circuits. In order to use shielded wire with an overhead distribution transformer would require reengineering the transformer plus a lot of extra cost items such as a pothead and dead front elbow that would drive up the cost of a simple safety and reliability method.

13. In the case of 4,160 volt and 4,800 volt generators unshielded cables simplify ground fault protection and differential current protection of the generator. ( Differential protection is similar to GFCI but appied to each phase winding to as to also detect phase to phase leaks. ) That is, you can run 2 or 3 unshielded cables at these voltage through a window type current transformer instead of having to parallel the secondaries of relay class CTs - the latter condition is much more dependent on the accuracy of the CTs during a short circuit.


Unshielded conductor has been used successfully for several decades in quite a few applications - there is just no evidence other than emotion or politics to indicate that unshielded cable is any less reliable or safe at voltages over 2,400 volts.

Removed inflammatory statement concerning unions.
Charlie

[ June 07, 2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

I'm not addressing anything about the issue you bring up.

But:

1. 120 volts is just as deadly as 2,400 volts and 4,800 volts.
That's like generalizing that a baseball is just as deadly as a bullet.

I understand your point.

But I also think it's important to recogognise that the threat that electricity poses "definitely" increases with voltage.

I don't think one size fits all is a good idea.

There are degrees.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

According to the proposal submitted for the change, instances of arcing have occured when the conductors are separated from the outer sheathing.

Perhaps you should form your objections into a 2008 proposal reversing the 2005 change. I have not and will never work on equipment or systems of this magnitude so I can not form any other opinions but these.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

I thank you for your education. It's rare someone takes out so much time to write their opinion on any topic!
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Strong points. I often see code changes that seem based on little empirical data. They are made to accomodate a particular industry that does have a problem. So the whole class gets punished for the actions of a few. (How little things change)
Anyway, in response to the FAA argument. It's not a bad point, but isn't the FAA exempt from the NEC?
I have no doubt that the engrs that work with the FAA will continue to spec the standard, unshielded 5 kv cable that edge lighting uses. At least until there is a Congressional hearing, at taxpayers expense that discovers substantial data to support a change. (see the flying pigs!)
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

I have just a few comments.
Item 1. 120V is not as deadly as 4800V. Most electrocutions deaths involve 120V because 120 is not generally respected by the non electrical community. It is also everywhere. When was the last time joe handy man jumped inside the local power company transformer to re configure the medium voltage lines? Contact with 120V can kill however allot of times it is just an uncomfortable experience. Contact with 4800V is a life changing experience.
Item 5. While the points given are valid, most UN shielded cable failure is due to improper installation. Non CT rated cable installed in conduit, cables in close proximity to grounded surfaces or shielded cable etc. This causes high stress points eventually resulting in insulation breakdown caused by corona discharge and eventual cable failure.
Item 7. I have never seen a utility run insulated cable overhead for distribution. Interesting.
Item 8. Automotive spark ignition systems do have very high voltages running through them however their power supplies have a very high internal impedance limiting the available current. I do not think an automotive mechanics training on how to handle spark plug wires qualifies them to work on medium voltage power systems.
Item 9. I thought union/non union bashing was not allowed on this site.
Item 10. Yes but do they train you how to use them?
Item 12. Again, insulated distribution is non existent in my part of the country. Nothing I have seen is suggesting shielded cable be used on overhead systems.
Item 13. Generator manufacturers will continue to use UN shielded cable for winding leads as 310.1 exempts them from 310.6 requirements.

One more thing. Insulation thickness in all types of cable has been cut to closer and closer tolerances over the years. One reason those older systems perform so well is the cable insulation was in a sense over built. In todays competitive market with tighter tolerances we do not have such luxuries.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Points that I will concede:

1. Higher voltages have higher arc-flash hazards but the difference between 2,400 volts and 4,800 volts is not that meaningful. 7,200 volts will most definitely blow your arm off.

Other points that I would like to make:

1. Shorting out a 12 volt car battery makes for a quite spectacular arc-flash situation.

2. Federal Aviation Administration REQUIRES compliance with National Electrical Code.

3. The arc-flash rules were partly the result of some spectactular accidents on high current 120Y208 volt electrical systems.

4. It does not really matter that a higher voltage will kill you faster or burn your face faster.

5. One of the public libraries around here has Rural Electrification Administration manuals on how to do hot line work correctly. Some of these manuals are theoretically out of print but I suppose that if you know somebody over at the Government Printing Office and for the right price you can get it back into print. I also spent a lot of time watching power company crews back when I was in elementary school so it is not that hard to get an idea of correct technique.

6. On 120 volts we are required by OSHA to assume that the equipment is hot AND to use hot line gloves and face shielding until a check with a known good voltmeter proves that the circuit is dead. Most of the required safety procedures are the same whether the voltage is 120 volts or 12,000 volts. The only difference is that we are not required to use grounding jumpers on 120 volts.

7. High short circuit current availability will partially make up for lower voltage as far as arc flash hazard is concerned.

8.a. The insulation thickness for over 2,000 volt unshielded cables has not been decreased in decades in spite of the use of modern synthetic rubbers. The modern synthetic rubbers actually make unshielded cables safer. Same goes for direct burial 600 volt USE cables.

8.b. The cutting of insulation thickness has primarily been with THWN wire which has a nylon armor. FAA regulations do not allow THWN wire for underground use in conduit in airport installations. I also ran across a reel of THWN-2 wire this past February that is only rated 60 degress Celsius when chronically submerged in water - this seems to have something to do with the MTW rating which assumes chronic submersion is water or oil.

9. Evidentally, Nick has never had his arm wrapped around his head by bringing has knuckle within 1.5 inches of a lawnmower sparkplug cable. He also seems to have no experience with General Motors High Energy Ignition - if a sparkplug wire is loose the high voltage will destroy the distributor rotor and possibly a few other components.

10. Nick also has not noticed that most of the time when an electrician dies of electrocution it is from contact with 120 volts. A lot of electrocution deaths involve professionals.

11. As far as insulation separating from the conductor is concerned, that can happen at any voltage. If you stuff too many wires into a box there will be so much pressure at contact points that insulation will cold flow creating a short. For metal boxes you can also have a ground fault. For nonmetallic boxes what you get instead of a ground fault is that the next guy who works on it gets a surprises because the wire is not as insulated as advertised.

12. I was told to be very careful in handholes. Mice chew on the wires. In related matters I had a rabbit that thought that 120 volts was delicious and I know 3 people whose dogs like to chew on 120 volts - saliva is semiconductive enough that if you have not eaten a salty snack letely you can stick 120 volts into your mouth and the only thing that it will do is stimulate your tastebuds. Anywhere else on your body will change your day.

13. I have also found that instant start slimline fixtures that use TFFN wire for the secondary circuit cause enough wear and tear on the insulation that when the ballast goes bad the ONLY legitimate repair is to do a guts swap. That is, the open circuit voltage ( up to 970 volts ) is so hard on TFFN wire that what you need to do is to buy a bare strip fixture, remove the guts, and change out the ballast, wires, and lampholders. The lampholders also seem to be cheaper with the result that they do not last that much longer.

[ June 09, 2005, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: mc5w ]
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

That was fast! Mice only have so many brain cells!

Seriously,

ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT CONTAINS SURPRISES!

Paranoia is a survival skill around electrical equipment. Same can be said about crossing the street.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

I also forgot that neon signs are still allowed to use 8,000 volt unshielded conductors.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

By the way Nick, Duquesne Light Company in Pittsburgh, PA has quite a bit of shielded cables strapped to an overhead messenger wire on their 14,400Y24,940 volt system particularly near the substations that step down from 138,000 volts. They have some instances of 5 circuits on the same pole, 2 using open wires and the rest messenger supported.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Also, generators and transformers that operate at over 600 volts usually have a shielding strip between conductor turns that forms a type of surge suppression capacitor. This known as insulation grading and also gets around the problem that a surge or lightnig strike puts more stress on the insulation that is at the beginning and ending of a winding than on the middle.

The exceptions to the insulation grading technique are transformers such as neon sign transformers and automotive ignition coils that are not subject to lightning.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Posted by MCW5:

saliva is semiconductive enough that if you have not eaten a salty snack letely you can stick 120 volts into your mouth and the only thing that it will do is stimulate your tastebuds. Anywhere else on your body will change your day.
I don't buy that. In fact, I think its *!@&&^. Ask any 6th grader who has been dared to stick a 9 volt battery in their mouth.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Originally posted by mc5w:
Points that I will concede:

1. Higher voltages have higher arc-flash hazards but the difference between 2,400 volts and 4,800 volts is not that meaningful. 7,200 volts will most definitely blow your arm off.
And your point would be what?

Originally posted by mc5w:
1. Shorting out a 12 volt car battery makes for a quite spectacular arc-flash situation.
And your point would be what?

Originally posted by mc5w:
2. Federal Aviation Administration REQUIRES compliance with National Electrical Code.
You want to be a little more specific, as I am sure airplanes are not wired to the NEC.

Originally posted by mc5w:
3. The arc-flash rules were partly the result of some spectactular accidents on high current 120Y208 volt electrical systems.
As always a reference to where you 'learned' that would be nice.

Originally posted by mc5w:
4. It does not really matter that a higher voltage will kill you faster or burn your face faster.
And your point would be what?


Originally posted by mc5w:
5. One of the public libraries around here has Rural Electrification Administration manuals on how to do hot line work correctly. Some of these manuals are theoretically out of print but I suppose that if you know somebody over at the Government Printing Office and for the right price you can get it back into print. I also spent a lot of time watching power company crews back when I was in elementary school so it is not that hard to get an idea of correct technique.
You think you know how to work hot because you saw someone do it while you where a child?
:roll:


Originally posted by mc5w:
6. On 120 volts we are required by OSHA to assume that the equipment is hot AND to use hot line gloves and face shielding until a check with a known good voltmeter proves that the circuit is dead. Most of the required safety procedures are the same whether the voltage is 120 volts or 12,000 volts. The only difference is that we are not required to use grounding jumpers on 120 volts.
And again your point would be what?


Originally posted by mc5w:
8.a. The insulation thickness for over 2,000 volt unshielded cables has not been decreased in decades in spite of the use of modern synthetic rubbers. The modern synthetic rubbers actually make unshielded cables safer. Same goes for direct burial 600 volt USE cables.
Really? That is strange as Nick, a person that actually works with these cables stated they have been reduced.

Originally posted by mc5w:
8.b. The cutting of insulation thickness has primarily been with THWN wire which has a nylon armor. FAA regulations do not allow THWN wire for underground use in conduit in airport installations. I also ran across a reel of THWN-2 wire this past February that is only rated 60 degress Celsius when chronically submerged in water - this seems to have something to do with the MTW rating which assumes chronic submersion is water or oil.
What has this thread got to do with the FAA regs?

As far as the THWN-2 you claimed to see that was only rated for use at 60 C that is pure BS, show me.

Originally posted by mc5w:
9. Evidentally, Nick has never had his arm wrapped around his head by bringing has knuckle within 1.5 inches of a lawnmower sparkplug cable. He also seems to have no experience with General Motors High Energy Ignition - if a sparkplug wire is loose the high voltage will destroy the distributor rotor and possibly a few other components.
No Nick is probably smart enough to keep his hands of live parts.

Keep in mind there is very little current behind a spark plug.

Originally posted by mc5w:
10. Nick also has not noticed that most of the time when an electrician dies of electrocution it is from contact with 120 volts. A lot of electrocution deaths involve professionals.
If voltages higher than 600 volts where as prevalent as 120 volt circuits the higher voltages would claim more lives than the lower voltages.

Originally posted by mc5w:
11. As far as insulation separating from the conductor is concerned, that can happen at any voltage. If you stuff too many wires into a box there will be so much pressure at contact points that insulation will cold flow creating a short. For metal boxes you can also have a ground fault. For nonmetallic boxes what you get instead of a ground fault is that the next guy who works on it gets a surprises because the wire is not as insulated as advertised.
Stuff happens, your point would be?

Originally posted by mc5w:
12. I was told to be very careful in handholes. Mice chew on the wires. In related matters I had a rabbit that thought that 120 volts was delicious and I know 3 people whose dogs like to chew on 120 volts - saliva is semiconductive enough that if you have not eaten a salty snack letely you can stick 120 volts into your mouth and the only thing that it will do is stimulate your tastebuds. Anywhere else on your body will change your day.
MC5 "you can stick 120 volts into your mouth and the only thing that it will do is stimulate your tastebuds."

This is just downright ridiculous and dangerous to even post. :roll:


Originally posted by mc5w:
13. I have also found that instant start slimline fixtures that use TFFN wire for the secondary circuit cause enough wear and tear on the insulation that when the ballast goes bad the ONLY legitimate repair is to do a guts swap. That is, the open circuit voltage ( up to 970 volts ) is so hard on TFFN wire that what you need to do is to buy a bare strip fixture, remove the guts, and change out the ballast, wires, and lampholders. The lampholders also seem to be cheaper with the result that they do not last that much longer.
I have to ask;

Are you really an electrician?

I have been doing this a while and have never encountered all the problems you claim are out there.

[ June 10, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

[QB] Posted by MCW5:

saliva is semiconductive enough that if you have not eaten a salty snack letely you can stick 120 volts into your mouth and the only thing that it will do is stimulate your tastebuds. Anywhere else on your body will change your day.
You first! :roll:
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

When I was a kid I used my teeth to strip wires a lot. DC battery type stuff mostly. I did that with a live telephone line one day. Man, everything turned blue. I can touch live phone wires all day and not even notice. But that was the most severe shock I ever had. It was also the last time I used my teeth for stripping wire. Based on that experience I can easily imagine not surviving 120 v. in the mouth. Definitely not something to try at home or at work.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

But my rabbit survived. I have also been told about old timers sticking 240 volts or 277 volts onto their tongues. However, if you get 48 volts or 120 volts on your lips it will make your day.

Are you sure that the phone was not ringing? I have been told about how much it hurts to accidentally touch ringing current in a central office.

I have also touched the 530 volts that comes out of a high output ballast in a foundry in July and it most definitely wrapped my arm around my head. Also used some rather strong language to describe how much it hurt. I very greatly appreciate the matter that Advance has come out with a high output ballast that shuts off the high voltage until it senses filaments across both the red and blue leads. That also happened before I had a noncontact voltmeter to tell me when a circuit is off which helps when a ballast does not light up new bulbs.

Anyways, lowering the voltage level of unshielded cable to 2,400 volts will not keep a mouse from frying himself. I have also seen a sustained arcing ground fault on 2,400Y4,160 volts right at the substation. What cleared the fault was that Ohio Edison had to send someone out to manually trip the main circuit breaker on the secondary of the substation transformer. The cause was that the insulator for the wire that fed the station transformer for that circuit breaker cracked. The fault was a ball of fire about the size of a basketball and brighter than the sun. This fault was immediately ahead of the fuse for that transformer.

So, what CMP #6 is doing is pure B.S. The only training difference that I can find is that Uncle Sam has drafted everybody who has a million dollars in training from the U.S. military. Since there are millions of auto mechanics who somehow know how to work safely on 8,000 volt unshielded cable, I take issue when some inhuman resources mismanager says that I have inferior training because I am not medically qualified to be a war hero.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

FAA requires that building and underground wiring in AIRPORTS comply with NEC. Wiring in airplanes is a whole different issue that is not covered in NEC. Just to clarify.

I have also received a nasty shock from picking up a 1.5 volt D cell by the ends. This happened when I was much younger ( back in 4th grade ) from neglecting to wash perspiration salts off of my hands. Therefore, any voltage that is hot enough to light a light bulb is a hazardous voltage under the wrong circumstance.

The part about arc flash accidents on 120Y208 volts was in Electrical Contractor magazine.

The insulation on USE-2 cable is a lot thicker than plain XHHW building wire. You can also get USE cable from Pirelli that has a layer of Fix-a-Flat in it which means that the trend in some instance is to thicker insulation. The FAA requirement for rubber or XHHW insulation thickness essentially excludes THWN wire from installation on 600 volt and less circuits.

Also, has anybody really read UL 83? I went through that and some manufacturers' data and found out that not all THWN-2 insulation systems are equal and that some manufacturers do not stand behind continual submergence in water at over 60 degrees Celsius. There seems to be a quibble out there as to the difference between a merely wet environment and a "wettest" environment. I do not have this reel nameplate in y possession and even if I did I not have a way to post it on the web.

Also, the NEC burial depth for streetlighting conduits below a public sidewalk is totally unsafe. About 12 or 15 years ago USA Today's crew drilled into a 480 volt streetlighting conduit when installing a vending machine. Since the circuit was deenergized by a central controller during the daytime and it was not raining nobody noticed anything wrong. When it rained in the evening some number of nights later one of USA Today's customers got toasted. Cleveland Public Power was cleared of liability because the burial depth was "Code".

I have also seen an instance this past fall where it was a good thing that I did not wire a wood frame commercial room until the siding went up. The alledged carpenters used rather long nails because that was what their nail gun used. If they had not had bed enough aim to be hitting the corners of the studs instead of the centers I probably would not have noticed it thanks to Greenlee's drill bit technology.
 
Re: 310.6 new restriction on unshielded cables

Let's just forget this whole thing. You can find sonmething wrong with any voltage level.
 
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