3M tape and other electrical taping products.

[Mike Ramirez]

3M tape and other electrical taping products.
I got a question code related. Most electricians wanted do use electrical tape wrapped around any type of receptacle devices including switches. Back in 1992 my boss and my instructor, Ted James, was called to troubleshoot a residential house that the owner of a house was consuming electrical power despite all of electrical component was off.
When we checked this person’s house we were monitoring home owners electrical power. As I recalled he was consuming 8 A of current throughout the homeowners house despite none of his appliances or other electrical power components was using less than one amp power when not in use.
Then my boss made decision to open up all the receptacles and investigate what’s causing the consumption of power. As we notice the receptacles and switches had 3M electrical tape wrapped around on the receptacles and switches. He made this decision that we need to remove the 3M electrical tape off and reinsert the receptacles and switches back into the boxes. As we took a second reading the current reading of the entire house dropped the current reading from 8 A to 1.5 A of the reading of the whole Electrcal reading of the house. Mr James believed the electrical tape was the culprit to conduct electrical current from ungrounded to ground it conductors on the receptacles and switches. When Mr James called the homeowners to check up on it’s electrical bill it had if I recall a 60% to 80% drop of electrical consumption and the homeowner thanked him that His electrical bill drop substantially.
My question is is there a section in the code book is it allowable do use electrical tape wrapped around a device such as a receptacle or switch to avoid short-circuiting or is there a violation and electrical tape can be semi conductive if the tape is conductive even though it can be conducted despite what we encountered at the tape is sticky and taky. I will thank you for your time to read this, mike ramirez

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The only possible way the tape could cause that is if they used a semi-conductive tape and not the typical insulating tape. The typical tapes used by electricians are designed to be used as insulation around electrical connections and do not conduct.

There is nothing that prohibits the use of tape around a wiring device and it is a common practice in some areas.

 

[hbiss]

Back in 1992 my boss and my instructor, Ted James, was called to troubleshoot a residential house that the owner of a house was consuming electrical power despite all of electrical component was off.

You can't assume "all of the electrical components are off" until you turn off breakers. Why he decided to start opening up receptacles is beyond me. Narrow it down to one or more circuits then find out what's on them.

Electrical tape isn't going to do that.

-Hal

 

[AC\DC]

Maybe some loss splices, maybe from back stabs outlets. Pulled them out and when pushing back you made a stronger connection.

 

[Barbqranch]

5 or 6 amps should produce a lot of heat in 24 hours.

 

[zbang]

600 watts, give or take. That ought to be noticeable.

 

[Mike Ramirez]

Hal and Don,
At that time the homeowner was receiving a electrical bill of $550 a month back in the early part of 1992 in Sierra Madre California. The homeowner and his wife are living on a fixed income and they had concerns about their electrical bill from So. Cal Edison electricity. The tape was theater by other electricians that they had to use copied 3M brand of electrical tape that the other electrician had use to complete their job. Even though the conductors of the receptacle or switch the tape itself was contacting or touching both the ungrounded and grounded conductors all of the same time. As I eyewitness the current reading off the main panel and all of the utilities in the house was disconnected it read 8 A. That’s why my boss made that decision to look at the receptacles if any conductive materials was being used. He made this decision to unravel the electrical tape at the receptacles that was wrapped around with electrical tape. Then we took a second reading off the main panel and a read 0 Amps then we reinsert all the apliances back online and then we made a third reading of 1.5 A. It may be not a 3M product but a different brand of electrical tape that find such as Home Depot or different store of a off brand electrical tape. He use an AEMC meter with a small printer to read print out. It taught me that lesson dad it’s a possible theory can insulate but also conduct electrical currents. It will insulate a single conductor from all other influence outside from the conductor, but it could conduct any semiconductive matter if two different conductors are not insulated from each other such as receptacle it is plausible that it could conduct on a receptacle wrapped around. If electrical tape was used as a insulator more than likely it will insulate One conductor at a time and as a cable isolate the connector then wrap electrical tape around the cable itself but I feel I’m going to far of explanation what I have encounter with these receptacles that was conducting with the electrical tape.

 

[Mike Ramirez]

600 watts, give or take. That ought to be noticeable.

Yes a $550 monthly bill and living on a fixed income, then my boss check on the retired couple’s electrical bill they were a paying new bill of less then $60 as I recall, after we fixed the couple’s electrical problems.

 

[Mike Ramirez]

Hal and Don,
At that time the homeowner was receiving a electrical bill of $550 a month back in the early part of 1992 in Sierra Madre California. The homeowner and his wife are living on a fixed income and they had concerns about their electrical bill from So. Cal Edison electricity. The tape was theater by other electricians that they had to use copied 3M brand of electrical tape that the other electrician had use to complete their job. Even though the conductors of the receptacle or switch the tape itself was contacting or touching both the ungrounded and grounded conductors all of the same time. As I eyewitness the current reading off the main panel and all of the utilities in the house was disconnected it read 8 A. That’s why my boss made that decision to look at the receptacles if any conductive materials was being used. He made this decision to unravel the electrical tape at the receptacles that was wrapped around with electrical tape. Then we took a second reading off the main panel and a read 0 Amps then we reinsert all the apliances back online and then we made a third reading of 1.5 A. It may be not a 3M product but a different brand of electrical tape that find such as Home Depot or different store of a off brand electrical tape. He use an AEMC meter with a small printer to read print out. It taught me that lesson dad it’s a possible theory can insulate but also conduct electrical currents. It will insulate a single conductor from all other influence outside from the conductor, but it could conduct any semiconductive matter if two different conductors are not insulated from each other such as receptacle it is plausible that it could conduct on a receptacle wrapped around. If electrical tape was used as a insulator more than likely it will insulate One conductor at a time and as a cable isolate the connector then wrap electrical tape around the cable itself but I feel I’m going to far of explanation what I have encounter with these receptacles that was conducting with the electrical tape.

Plus the house is a 2.5k sq ft home with swimming pool, that has more then 60 receptacles using a Edison three wire system or single phase system 120/240V.

 

[Little Bill]

@Mike Ramirez
Welcome to the Forum!

It would be a huge help to us if you would separate your writing into paragraphs in your posts. A huge group of words/sentences crammed together makes them very hard to read.

Hit your enter button after a few lines, that way it breaks up the reading and makes it easier to read.

As far as tape conducting, I highly doubt that was the cause, as to do that, there would be heat and the tape would heat up and melt. Plus, it couldn't have been electrical tape as it is for insulating conductors to prevent them from conducting/shorting to something else that is conductive.

I would say, if there was something conducting, it was stopped from conducting when the devices were removed and put back. A better way of checking would have been, as someone suggested, to clamp the service wires with an Amp clamp to see if current was flowing with everything off. If there was, turn off the breakers one at a time until you find which circuit has current flow.

At the receptacles or switches, clamp the hot wire and check for current. Then remove the tape and check again. But I highly doubt you would find any such current draw just from tape.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Hal and Don,
At that time the homeowner was receiving a electrical bill of $550 a month back in the early part of 1992 in Sierra Madre California. The homeowner and his wife are living on a fixed income and they had concerns about their electrical bill from So. Cal Edison electricity. The tape was theater by other electricians that they had to use copied 3M brand of electrical tape that the other electrician had use to complete their job. Even though the conductors of the receptacle or switch the tape itself was contacting or touching both the ungrounded and grounded conductors all of the same time. As I eyewitness the current reading off the main panel and all of the utilities in the house was disconnected it read 8 A. That’s why my boss made that decision to look at the receptacles if any conductive materials was being used. He made this decision to unravel the electrical tape at the receptacles that was wrapped around with electrical tape. Then we took a second reading off the main panel and a read 0 Amps then we reinsert all the apliances back online and then we made a third reading of 1.5 A. It may be not a 3M product but a different brand of electrical tape that find such as Home Depot or different store of a off brand electrical tape. He use an AEMC meter with a small printer to read print out. It taught me that lesson dad it’s a possible theory can insulate but also conduct electrical currents. It will insulate a single conductor from all other influence outside from the conductor, but it could conduct any semiconductive matter if two different conductors are not insulated from each other such as receptacle it is plausible that it could conduct on a receptacle wrapped around. If electrical tape was used as a insulator more than likely it will insulate One conductor at a time and as a cable isolate the connector then wrap electrical tape around the cable itself but I feel I’m going to far of explanation what I have encounter with these receptacles that was conducting with the electrical tape.

I am sorry, but there is no way that is possible with tape that is used for insulating wiring connections. The tape is designed and listed for that purpose and the typical vinyl electrical tape has a breakdown voltage of about 20,000 volts per mil under test conditions with the voltage sources being spheres as opposed to points.

Any chance it was friction tape, and not insulating tape? However even friction tape is not likely to conduct at that voltage unless it is wet.

 

[retirede]

600 watts, give or take. That ought to be noticeable.

And that’s 430 kWh in 30 days. That couldn’t account for the reduction in the electric bill as described. About $500!

It sounds to me like they stopped running the pool pump at the same time. There’s no way you can run a pool and have a $60 electric bill.

 

[zbang]

Yep, the tape has nothing to do with it.

There's a common phrase in root-cause analysis- "correlation is not causality" (just because one thing happened after another doesn't mean the first caused the second). There's also the principle looking for all the reasons why your own theory might be wrong before accepting that it's probably right.

Vinyl electrical tape is made/sold to insulate and does so fairly well. Not all tape is rated for wet environments, but sounds like this was dry. "Friction" tape is not sold as insulation, but does so when dry, but that probably wasn't used here.

Unless the 600+ watt load was evenly distributed, something would have been HOT, and more likely to be noticed. Even if the load was distributed over 10-15 receptacles, the heat should have been noticeable and there's no mention of that.

There was a high bill, but the dollar amount doesn't match well the measured load (5 amps continuous times 120 volts times 24 hours times 30 days = 432 kWH, which would have to be over a dollar a kWH to make $500; the logic of that fails unless electricity is hugely expensive there).

Lots of outlets were opened then closed, that will have moved all the wired around and if appliances had been plugged, they might not have been reconnected.

So really, the likelihood of tape causing the issue is extremely small. I'd put my money on a device what was left running but not reconnected after the outlets were opened or something like a baseboard heater (and if everything wasn't put back exactly where it was, then the comparison is not valid).

 

[hbiss]

Maybe some loss splices, maybe from back stabs outlets. Pulled them out and when pushing back you made a stronger connection.

He said that there were no loads on anything. Everything was disconnected.

8 amps sucked up by electrical tape.

Me thinks your boss and instructor need some lessons on troubleshooting and logic.

-Hal

 

[ptonsparky]

Shotgun diagnosis. Fire a bunch of fixes at a problem all at one time. Pick a pellet at random for the 'fix'.

 

[hillbilly1]

Yeah, I think there would be heating evidence if it was the tape, in theory, if the receptacle was wrapped completely, and did have some conductivity, it would flow from neutral to hot because of the wrap covering both terminals, maybe it was duct tape, which I think does have some conductivity, but it would be a heck of a lot leakage to run the power bill up that much!

 

[tthh]

Slightly adjacent-topic...I have never been a fan of wrapping the receptable with tape. I figure if you are removeing the plate, you ought to understand there is possible danger. But, also never a fan of back-stab - just too many issues with very small surface area contact.

 

[Mike Ramirez]

Slightly adjacent-topic...I have never been a fan of wrapping the receptable with tape. I figure if you are removeing the plate, you ought to understand there is possible danger. But, also never a fan of back-stab - just too many issues with very small surface area contact.

I tend to agree what you just said wrapping tape around receptacles could lead into other problems such as the electrical bill that the homeowner had encountered. Even though he was an university math teacher my boss/instructor were colleagues at the school. That’s why he could afford a $500 monthly bill but it did not jive right with the electrical bill. That’s why my boss made that decision to remove the electrical tape from the receptacles. It was a costly lesson for the homeowner but for me also that it could be possible and plausible doesn’t matter what brand of electrical tape that the previous electrician had to use, far and concern it could be a cheap Kmart brand of electrical tape.

 

[Mike Ramirez]

I tend to agree what you just said wrapping tape around receptacles could lead into other problems such as the electrical bill that the homeowner had encountered. Even though he was an university math teacher my boss/instructor were colleagues at the school. That’s why he could afford a $500 monthly bill but it did not jive right with the electrical bill. That’s why my boss made that decision to remove the electrical tape from the receptacles. It was a costly lesson for the homeowner but for me also that it could be possible and plausible doesn’t matter what brand of electrical tape that the previous electrician had to use, far and concern it could be a cheap Kmart brand of electrical tape.

 

[kwired]

Yep, the tape has nothing to do with it.

There's a common phrase in root-cause analysis- "correlation is not causality" (just because one thing happened after another doesn't mean the first caused the second). There's also the principle looking for all the reasons why your own theory might be wrong before accepting that it's probably right.

Vinyl electrical tape is made/sold to insulate and does so fairly well. Not all tape is rated for wet environments, but sounds like this was dry. "Friction" tape is not sold as insulation, but does so when dry, but that probably wasn't used here.

Unless the 600+ watt load was evenly distributed, something would have been HOT, and more likely to be noticed. Even if the load was distributed over 10-15 receptacles, the heat should have been noticeable and there's no mention of that.

There was a high bill, but the dollar amount doesn't match well the measured load (5 amps continuous times 120 volts times 24 hours times 30 days = 432 kWH, which would have to be over a dollar a kWH to make $500; the logic of that fails unless electricity is hugely expensive there).

Lots of outlets were opened then closed, that will have moved all the wired around and if appliances had been plugged, they might not have been reconnected.

So really, the likelihood of tape causing the issue is extremely small. I'd put my money on a device what was left running but not reconnected after the outlets were opened or something like a baseboard heater (and if everything wasn't put back exactly where it was, then the comparison is not valid).

600 watts distributed fairly equally across 15 receptacles would mean around 40 watts at each receptacle. That would be very noticeable and likely to start something on fire if it hadn't burned itself into "open circuit" condition first.