3phase converter

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jcole

Senior Member
Had a salesman today ask me if putting in a solid state 3phase converter to run a 240v 3phase heat pump at his house would cost less per month than a single phase heat pump.

I told him I didnt think so because... Well thats as far I got.

I assume they convert 1 to 3 phase the same way as VFD's by having transistors turn on and off at different intervals to simulate a waveform.

Can someone help me explain to him in theory why he is wrong or right?
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I did a load survey of a 3 phase converter to a motor generator to a chiller 38% efficient. And now the MG is falling apart (lack of maintenance). Not that I have not tried to sell this.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Common sense would have me thinking that an extra conversion is going to have extra cost. There may be some compelling evidence otherwise but, off-the-cuff, I would think the single phase unit would be more efficient/cheaper in the long run.
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
Remember watts is watts regardless if it is 3 phase or single phase. However if
the conversion process is on the load side of the meter there will be additional losses in this process. If the units are the same capacity then I would believe the the single phase unit would be more efficient. If you had the option of the service being 3 phase of single phase then I believe the units would use about the same amount of energy.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Watts are watts are watts. Nothing you are going to do is going to change that., except, as others mentioned, to add more losses to the equation. But when it comes to motor loads, there is also an efficiency and power factor component to the equation. In that case, 3 phase motors tend to be slightly more efficient than 1 phase motors, but 1 phase motors tend to have better power factor (because of the capacitors). Both things affect the power consumption and it usually ends up favoring 1 phase motors when the power is 3-5HP or under.

Here's an example:

Baldor 3HP 1 phase 230V cap start, High Efficiency motor, nameplate FLC is 11.2A, .98 pf, 85.5% efficient Link
Power consumed then is 11.2 x 230 x .98 x .885 = 2.16kW

Baldor 3HP 3 phase 230V High Efficiency motor, nameplate FLC is 8A, pf is .77, eficiency is 90.5% Link
Power consumed is 8 x 230 x 1.732 x .77 x .905 = 2.20kW

So less than 2% difference betweeen the 2, favoring the 1 phase motor.

However, whatever you do to convert the 1 phase supply to 3 phase is also going to have efficiency losses associated with it. Rotary phase converters are notoriously inefficient as mentioned above; 40% losses at least, usually more. Static phase converters (electrical parts, but not electronic) are slightly better but not always compatible with certain loads, and you may not find out until it is too late. Electronic phase converters, such as VFDs are the most efficient at 95-97%, but are also the most expensive and complex: more to go wrong.

So at best, you will come out with slightly worse than a wash on the efficiency, i.e. you gain nothing in the 3 phase motor but lose in the phase conversion. It may be a tiny little bit better if the 1 phase motor you are replacing is not Energy Efficient and the 3 phase motor is, but now you have spent a bundle of money and decreased your "Mean Time Between Failures" by adding complexity, getting little in return.
 

coulter

Senior Member
Jraef said:
...Baldor 3HP 1 phase 230V cap start, High Efficiency motor, nameplate FLC is 11.2A, .98 pf, 85.5% efficient Link
Power consumed then is 11.2 x 230 x .98 x .885 = 2.16kW

Baldor 3HP 3 phase 230V High Efficiency motor, nameplate FLC is 8A, pf is .77, eficiency is 90.5% Link
Power consumed is 8 x 230 x 1.732 x .77 x .905 = 2.20kW
...
I think your conclusions are good. But shouldn't the 3ph be 5% less kw than the 1ph?

carl
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080617-2051 EST

Jraef:

You have a perpetual motion machine. 3 HP output is 2.238 KW and your input is 2.16 or 2.20 KW. Not possible.

Leave the efficiency out of the calculation.

The first one is 2524 W input for 2238 W output, and calculated efficiency is 0.89 .

The 3 phase one is 2454 W input for 2238 W output, and the calculated efficiency is 0.91 .
The 3 phase saving is 70 W if you have 3 phase supplied to you.

.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Jraef said:
Baldor 3HP 1 phase 230V cap start, High Efficiency motor, nameplate FLC is 11.2A, .98 pf, 85.5% efficient Link
Power consumed then is 11.2 x 230 x .98 x .885 = 2.16kW

I believe that this calculation should be:
Power consumed = 11.2 x 230 x 0.98 = 2.53kW
Power output = power consumed * 0.885 = 2.23kW

Similarly for the 3 phase machine
8 x 230 x 1.732 x .77 = 2.45kW in and
* .905 = 2.22kW out

The real difference is that 88.5% efficiency versus the 90.5% efficiency, favoring the 3 phase machine...but that 2% efficiency difference would be eaten up by any phase converter.

-Jon
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
The simple answer is that, even with a 100% efficiency, the best you could possibly do is break even, energy-wise, and lose big-time, equipment-wise.
 
jcole said:
Had a salesman today ask me if putting in a solid state 3phase converter to run a 240v 3phase heat pump at his house would cost less per month than a single phase heat pump.

I told him I didnt think so because... Well thats as far I got.

I assume they convert 1 to 3 phase the same way as VFD's by having transistors turn on and off at different intervals to simulate a waveform.

Can someone help me explain to him in theory why he is wrong or right?

The amortized cost of the converter and the efficiency of the conversion at the operating point would need to be taken into consideration along with the efficiency differece between the 3 phase unit and the single phase unit.

Ex.: A 3000W unit at 92% conversion efficiency uses 240W extra. If the 3 phase unit is 2% more efficient than a single phase unit would result in 180W net adder. If you calculate a 3000hr average uptime would result in $54 yearly additional cost at $0.1/kWHr.

You may experience difficulties with the synthetized sinewave on the electronics of the heat pump control unit and in general it would put harmonics on your powerline that may interfere with some of your electronic household gizmos.
 

donw

Senior Member
Location
Arizona
And those electronic things are real expensive. I priced one once to run a large 3-ph air conditioner on a residence. It was $6K for a 30KVA model (I think). The architect punted and decided to go with insulated glass. Why anyone would live in a 8000 s.f. glass house in Arizona escapes me!
 
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