4 pole handle ties

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jumper said:
Not me. I am curious. Why do you need or want to?
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Not something that I need, but I was checking out the new NEC 2011 210.7 Change.
I've seen where in some Hospitals (against my better judgement) that some duplex receptacles were supplied by 2, branch circuits from an ISOLATION (Ungrounded) panel.
Basically these 'breakers' for the iso panel are 2 pole for one circuit. And if contractors etc. decide to continue this practice (against my better judgement) then they will need a '4 pole' handle tie.
Maybe this will stop them from doing that.
 
I do not believe there are any listed handle ties for four single pole units.

You may be able to find some factory four pole breakers with a single handle.
 
There are a couple aspects of this that I do not understand.
brother said:
. . . were supplied by 2, branch circuits from an ISOLATION (Ungrounded) panel.
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Do you mean "isolated ground"? I don't have a code book handy, but I would not have guessed that a hospital would have an ungrounded system.
brother said:
And if contractors etc. decide to continue this practice . . . , then they will need a '4 pole' handle tie.
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What manner of continuation of the practice would lead to the need to turn off four circuits at the same time? If a duplex has two power sources, then their breakers have to be able to be turned off at the same time. But even if you had a pair of duplexes in a 4x4 box being served by four separate sources, I don't think the code would require that all four be turned off at the same time.
 
I'm more than a little confused by the installation being described as well. :-?

If it's a QO panel, seems to me their handle ties can go on forever, IIRC.
 
George Stolz said:
Show me. :)
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Can't right now, I am trying to get a bid together that covers 36 locations across six states.

My suggestion is to look in the Square D digest and see if you can find and more than 3 pole 'kits'.

From a practical standpoint if you made one 21 poles long do you really think that turning off number 1 would turn off 41? Or even number 13?
 
iwire said:
Can't right now, I am trying to get a bid together that covers 36 locations across six states.
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Neener neener, I am sitting on my couch on my day off in my peejays. :D

From a practical standpoint if you made one 21 poles long do you really think that turning off number 1 would turn off 41? Or even number 13?
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Well, no, but from a practical standpoint I would expect much derision from the attempt. :)
 
LarryFine said:
Many 3-pole shunt-trip breakers have four-pole-sized handle ties.
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Yes they do, along with four pole handles on the '4 pole/2 pole 200 amp main breakers'. They are also internal common trip.

But can you buy those handles for field installation?
 
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charlie b said:
There are a couple aspects of this that I do not understand.Do you mean "isolated ground"? I don't have a code book handy, but I would not have guessed that a hospital would have an ungrounded system.
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For some operating rooms, there are some 'ungrounded systems' NEC 2008 517.160 Isolated Power systems also 517.20 Wet procedure locations where the receptacles either have to be gfci protected IF the loss of power can be tolerated, if not tolerated then an iso system is required. Of course the iso (ungrounded system) is monitored 517.160(B)

charlie b said:
What manner of continuation of the practice would lead to the need to turn off four circuits at the same time? If a duplex has two power sources, then their breakers have to be able to be turned off at the same time. But even if you had a pair of duplexes in a 4x4 box being served by four separate sources, I don't think the code would require that all four be turned off at the same time. .
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I think this is where the communication is lost. ;) In an iso panel, the 2 pole breaker is considered 1 (ONE )branch ciruit since both conductors that supply the receptacle (orange and brown) are on the power terminals(brass and silver) of the receptacle. Neither conductor is 'grounded'. This is not a 'pair' of duplexes (4 recepteacles), this is a 'single duplex'(2 receptacles). What I have seen is that there are 2 circuits from a iso panel (REMEMBER this would be 2, double pole breakers) that would supply a 'single duplex' , so the top receptacle is one circuit and the bottom receptacle is the other. So to have a 'common' disconnect they would need a 4 pole handle tie to be code compliant.

I checked my NEC 2008 again aparently this was already in there, 210.7(B) I had just over looked it. In the 2011 NEC it's just 210.7, they simply relocated it. I hope I made this clearer. ;)
 
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