wmthompson90
Member
- Location
- ky
- Occupation
- electrician
If a panel is stamped 3phase 4 wire am I required to pull a neutral if there will be no neutral loads? This will be a sub panel.
4-wire panelboard
- Thread starter wmthompson90
- Start date
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Longer answer: No, not required at all!
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Real short answer is that you or someone in the future will thank you if you do run a neutral.
-Hal
-Hal
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Be sure to mark the panel as such though for future loads.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Nah, they will just land the neutral to their new thingy on the ground barReal short answer is that you or someone in the future will thank you if you do run a neutral.
-Hal
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Does a 3 phase, 3 wire panelboard require the proper labeling to indicate that it doesn't have a neutral?
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
I am not aware of any requirement.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Not as long as the source feeding it is grounded.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Doesn't 3 phase, 3 wire, automatically tell you that?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Yes but the panel in the OP is labeled 3 phase, 4 wire so it's not obvious that it does not contain a neutral conductor.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Yes, but your questions was for a 3 phase 3 wire panel. I don't think there is any requirement to mark a 3 phase 4 wire wire panel that is wired without a neutral, but it would be a good practice.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Seems a lack of a white, or gray, conductor on the grounded conductor bar might be a clue!
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
You're assuming that someone will actually remove the cover. It's more likely that someone will look at the panel label see 3Ø, 4W and assume that there is a neutral. I'm not aware of a particular code section that would require the proper label to be installed on the panel but figured I would ask.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Well they're going to have to open it to install their circuit. Surprise!, no neutral!
Been there, done that. Similar to finding dead fronts that have more breaker knockouts than actual breaker buss spots.......after you bid the job
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
I learned the hard way to open the panel before quoting. There are several brands that have more KO for breakers than spots on the bus. I think they just use the same cover for different size panels to save on mfg and inventory.Been there, done that. Similar to finding dead fronts that have more breaker knockouts than actual breaker buss spots.......after you bid the job
Another "gotcha" is some 100A panels where the main is in the branch circuit area on the bus, don't allow breakers opposite the main. There are KO's there but no place for the breaker.
MyCleveland
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Look at 2020 408.58.
I would think if installer does not maintain the voltage system marked by manufacturer he must apply a new label.
Cannot recall the number of times I have been burned by this....even on SERVICEs where no neutral was pulled in from the utility transformer.
One of these services was a building owned by the POCO.