I am in a new jurisdiction and the utility brings power to the property line. The house is a couple hundred feet away. The utility sets a meter and breaker at the property line and that is the service point. My question is this: Are the conductors I pull to the house service conductors or feeders? It would seem to me they would be feeders, but others say they are service conductors since the NEC covers service disconnects and the utility’s meter and breaker is under the jurisdiction of the utility. I know this is not an uncommon install, but I have not done it before.
400 amp service
- Thread starter wyboy
- Start date
If there is an OCP device at the meter, your conductors would be feeders and you will need to install a EGC.
If there is no OCP at the meter, your conductors are service conductors and no EGC is needed until your overcurrent device.
If there is no OCP at the meter, your conductors are service conductors and no EGC is needed until your overcurrent device.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Is the service point on the line side of the breaker making it the service disconnect?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Then I don't see how that can be the service disconnect. The service disconnect would end up being at the house. Let's see if Augie agrees.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I agree with Rob, if the service point is the load side of the utility supplied breaker, the conductors connected to the load side of that breaker are service conductors and the service disconnect will be at the house.
I have heard that from others. I just don't understand why. The NEC does not state who provides the overcurrent protection. I'm good either way but don't want to make a mistake. I have (2) 200 amp disconnects on the house. Since they are service conductors, i will need to mount a Jbox and splice with 3/0 to each 200 breaker instead of 2 feeder taps off the 400 amp breaker.
PaulEd
Member
- Location
- United States
Forgive my ignorance but what is meant by “Is the service point on the line side of the breaker making it the service disconnect?”?
If the POCO brought their power to a OCPD/disconnect breaker wouldn’t they by default bring it to the line side of the breaker making service point? How could the service be on the load side of a breaker?
If the POCO brought their power to a OCPD/disconnect breaker wouldn’t they by default bring it to the line side of the breaker making service point? How could the service be on the load side of a breaker?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
It's usually up to the POCO to determine where the service point is. Since the meter and the breaker are their equipment in this case they have determined that the service point is on the load side of their breaker. The service disconnect needs to be on the premises wiring side of the service point.
From Article 100:
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Rural POCOs here typically provide a meter and disconnect. Customer may pay for it but is still commonly a POCO thing and if it fails or you upgrade the POCO typically replaces it. If it is replaced you may go from one with overcurrent protection to one without, or vice versa.
Because of that, the AHJ makes us treat conductors leaving these POCO installed disconnects as though they were service conductors and the disconnect is simply there as a convenience thing and not really something they inspect. For now they have amended out the Emergency disconnect rules of 2020 and 2023 so IDK if they would allow these to be the emergency disconnect where required if they had not amended out that rule.
Because of that, the AHJ makes us treat conductors leaving these POCO installed disconnects as though they were service conductors and the disconnect is simply there as a convenience thing and not really something they inspect. For now they have amended out the Emergency disconnect rules of 2020 and 2023 so IDK if they would allow these to be the emergency disconnect where required if they had not amended out that rule.
If the meter and disconnect are under POCO's jurisdiction and the service point is at the load side of the disconnect I agree the conductors to the house would be service conductors
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Do they keep it locked, or does the customer have access to the disconnect? (Just curious, not suggesting that bears on the code questions.)
Cheers, Wayne
I may be wrong, but, I consider the load side of the breaker in the pedestal a Service point that just happens to have overcurrent protection ahead of it.
Therefore I consider it a feeder from the pedestal to the structure, pull an EGC from there , and, put a disconnecting means at or near the closest point of entry to the structure it's feeding.
I guess if someone wanted to challenge that they should be Service Conductors I could disconnect the EGC if need be, but, if the EGC is not in there when I pull the service in, it would be almost impossible to add without doing it all over again.
In my mind, if they wanted to actually considered the conductors on the load side of the pedestal Service Conductors, the pedestal should simply be a Service Switch with no overcurrent protection.
Also I've heard if they change it out, they, may or may not put the overcurrent protection back in and therefore they should be considered Service Conductors. I've never seen that happen. Around here if a brush hog or a car wipes out a Service Pedestal they replace it with the exact same thing.
Also, yes, in our area the meter portion is sealed, but, the pedestal is not locked and the customer has access to the breaker.
Oh well,
Jap>
Therefore I consider it a feeder from the pedestal to the structure, pull an EGC from there , and, put a disconnecting means at or near the closest point of entry to the structure it's feeding.
I guess if someone wanted to challenge that they should be Service Conductors I could disconnect the EGC if need be, but, if the EGC is not in there when I pull the service in, it would be almost impossible to add without doing it all over again.
In my mind, if they wanted to actually considered the conductors on the load side of the pedestal Service Conductors, the pedestal should simply be a Service Switch with no overcurrent protection.
Also I've heard if they change it out, they, may or may not put the overcurrent protection back in and therefore they should be considered Service Conductors. I've never seen that happen. Around here if a brush hog or a car wipes out a Service Pedestal they replace it with the exact same thing.
Also, yes, in our area the meter portion is sealed, but, the pedestal is not locked and the customer has access to the breaker.
Oh well,
Jap>
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
The NEC considers the conductors to be service conductors. If the POCO wants it the way you've described they can simply call the service point the line side of the circuit breaker. For whatever reason they've specifically chosen the load side. In this case the house is several hundred feet away so you can save money but not having to pull an EGC.
The NEC considers the conductors to be service conductors. If the POCO wants it the way you've described they can simply call the service point the line side of the circuit breaker. For whatever reason they've specifically chosen the load side. In this case the house is several hundred feet away so you can save money but not having to pull an EGC.
The power company has never given me any input on where they call the service point.
They stick the pedestal out there and leave.
For that matter, I've neve had an inspector decide where it was either.
I think they're just like us and don't really know, or, if they do they don't enforce it.
Even Augie thought that in post 2 and this thread almost stopped in post 3 before the whole line and load thing at the overcurrent device.
I'm sure other areas are more strict probably.
Jap
On another note, most of the Service pedestals also have a 4 circuit distribution section in them.
If the load side of the main breaker in the pedestal are to be considered Service Conductors where the Neutral is not grounded and bonded at the pedestal those branch distributions spaces would be off limits would they not?
Jap>
If the load side of the main breaker in the pedestal are to be considered Service Conductors where the Neutral is not grounded and bonded at the pedestal those branch distributions spaces would be off limits would they not?
Jap>
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired
Not unless everyone wanted to share a single meter.
The power company stops at the pedestal in our area any way.
Jap>
wwhitney
Senior Member
- Location
- Berkeley, CA
- Occupation
- Retired