I was wondering what other members used for 400Y/230V System Identification. Per 210.5 & 215.12 we typically use colored cable Black, Red Blue & White for 208Y/120V systems and Brown, Orange, Yellow & Gray for 480Y/277V systems. Panels and distribution boards are labeled accordingly. Over the past few years we see more equipment form overseas coming in requiring 400Y/230V (still 60hz) and have installed transformers and panels to support this equipment. Sometimes just a transformer and disconnect dedicated for a single piece of equipment and sometimes a transformer with a panel for multiple 400Y/230V branch circuits. For the most part I believe we have been using just standard Brown, Orange, Yellow & Gray for identification, but I believe that this would be wrong if building already has 480Y/277V system. I think we could just add a stripe for separate identification, but would like to get feedback on this and was wondering what others have used for similar applications.
400Y/230V System Identification
- Thread starter Richard S
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kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
Adding a stripe works, you must make sure you indicate this method everywhere you post your identification methods.
Green, white and gray are restricted for use with grounding/grounded conductors, outside of that there are endless ways to identify and color is only part of the possibilities.
If you only have a couple voltage systems color is easy, if you have more voltage systems your identification method has to get more complex as you begin to run out of colors to use.
jumper
Senior Member
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Identified colored tape works fine for all sizes of ungrounded conductors and grounded conductors larger than #6, but is not a allowed method for #6 and smaller grounded conductors.
See 200.6(A).
See 200.6(A).
MAC702
Senior Member
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- Clark County, NV
To clarify, this is when using a colored wire as a green, gray, or white.
It does not mean you can't use white with a gray stripe of tape for a neutral of a specific voltage system.
jumper
Senior Member
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Where in 200.6(A) do you see tape allowed for conductors smaller than #4?
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
For application of 200.6(A) tape is not allowed to be the primary identification means. I could see a conductor with primary white or gray color and use additional tape, stripes, or other methods to identify it for a specific voltage system though.
Similar rules apply to the EGC but EGC's are not addressed in art 200, so green isn't part of this discussion.
let me add that 200.6(A)(3) would allow "Three continuous white or gray stripes along the conductor’s entire length on other than green insulation." Grounded conductor could be any color but green if it has three continuous white or gray stripes. Those stripes designate it as a grounded conductor and the color can designate which voltage system it belongs to.
jumper
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I agree totally, but as written an inspector would not have to accept it.
I thoroughly despise the rules for identifying small conductors.
What works for #4 and larger is okay by me.
I could rant and rave on this subject, but it is not worth it. The rules are prolly never gonna change.
jumper
Senior Member
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Why do we even need that?
A stupid pink wire with some white tape should be acceptable!
If it were a #4 or larger that would be legal. Sigh.....
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
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- EC
FIFY
When it comes to identifying more then two systems, you have to get creative in some way as striped conductors aren't necessarily readily available everywhere and all that it left after that is white and gray - what do you use for grounded conductor of a third or fourth voltage system if you have them? If they reject tape they can reject other markings also.
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
FIFY
When it comes to identifying more then two systems, you have to get creative in some way as striped conductors aren't necessarily readily available everywhere and all that it left after that is white and gray - what do you use for grounded conductor of a third or fourth voltage system if you have them? If they reject tape they can reject other markings also.
What do I do? Violate the rules routinely.
Sounds like European voltages. Brown, black, grey and blue would normally be used for L1, L2, L3, and N here.
jumper
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Personally I think pink, purple, tan and rainbow swirl should be adopted internationally.
I'd like to go back to red, yellow, blue and black. Much more sensible than the current drab colours. "Harmonisation" has led to some ludicrous decisions.Personally I think pink, purple, tan and rainbow swirl should be adopted internationally.
But that's the EU.
MAC702
Senior Member
- Location
- Clark County, NV
I don't need to see it allowed. I need to not see it prohibited.
Identifying a white wire (neutral) with gray tape to identify specifically what voltage system the neutral belongs to does not change the fact that it's a white wire being used as a neutral.
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
It specifically denotes methods allowed. That means it is not permissive, if it is not included-‘‘tis verboten.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
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- Retired PV System Designer
IMHO tape cannot be used on smaller wires for the purpose of altering the wire to or from a required color, such as distinguishing between a grounded conductor and an ungrounded conductor.
But if the purpose of the tape is instead phase/voltage identification at a site with more than one voltage system, I do not see any reason not to use, for example, black with with a blue tape marking as a listed marking alternative to using continuous blue insulation. Regardless of size.
One other potential reason not to allow tape-based reidentification of small wires may be the difficulty of concentrically taping smaller wire. A flag of tape instead would be more cumbersome and less durable.
But if the purpose of the tape is instead phase/voltage identification at a site with more than one voltage system, I do not see any reason not to use, for example, black with with a blue tape marking as a listed marking alternative to using continuous blue insulation. Regardless of size.
One other potential reason not to allow tape-based reidentification of small wires may be the difficulty of concentrically taping smaller wire. A flag of tape instead would be more cumbersome and less durable.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
JMO, but I don't see too significant of a difference between marking a white conductor with red tape to indicate it goes with the red conductor installed in same raceway or to identify it as the neutral of a specific system when you have multiple systems. We are told we have to identify what system it belongs to, we also need to designate which neutral belongs with which ungrounded conductors involving MWBC's when there are multiple MWBC's in a raceway. If you don't do it with colored tape you are maybe going to apply a label of some sort or some kind of permanent marking. About only other methods remaining is custom made conductors with stripes or other factory markings to designate such things.
Marking a white conductor with red tape for such purposes makes some cry foul, and they say it will confuse some as to whether or not it is identifying it as an ungrounded conductor. Again JMO, but the requirement to identify the white in a cable assembly when it is used as an ungrounded conductor is one of my biggest and oldest pet peeves in the NEC. Such rule is there to protect the untrained, from their own ignorance. IMO if you see a white conductor landed on a breaker and can't tell it is an ungrounded conductor (marked or not), or see a white conductor landed on the grounded conductor bus and think it might be a hot conductor because it has a piece of red tape attached to it- you have no business messing around in there.
Marking a white conductor with red tape for such purposes makes some cry foul, and they say it will confuse some as to whether or not it is identifying it as an ungrounded conductor. Again JMO, but the requirement to identify the white in a cable assembly when it is used as an ungrounded conductor is one of my biggest and oldest pet peeves in the NEC. Such rule is there to protect the untrained, from their own ignorance. IMO if you see a white conductor landed on a breaker and can't tell it is an ungrounded conductor (marked or not), or see a white conductor landed on the grounded conductor bus and think it might be a hot conductor because it has a piece of red tape attached to it- you have no business messing around in there.
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