406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space./410.10(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas.

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mwm1752

mwm1752

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It appears the NEC 2020 has made definition of space & areas alike when measuring the zone. Does this mean switches can no longer be within 3' of a tub or shower space?? Or is this just another change without dutiful research.
404.4(C) Switches in Tub or Shower Spaces.
Switches shall not be installed within tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly.
 
IMO, it just means it cannot be in the shower or tub space. They added the word "Tub" to this section. You still can be within the 3' as long as you clear the tub space.

Now receptacles cannot be within 3' unless you meet the exception

406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.
Exception: In bathrooms with less than the required zone the receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be installed opposite the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold on the farthest wall within the room.
Click to expand...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
IMO, it just means it cannot be in the shower or tub space. They added the word "Tub" to this section. You still can be within the 3' as long as you clear the tub space.

Now receptacles cannot be within 3' unless you meet the exception
Click to expand...
I’m going to assume the bathtub rim is where the water actually comes to at the top of the tub.
I can see this being a sticking point when some AHJ measures from the outside top edge of a jet or massage tub.
I have a jet tub in my bathroom , and like most it hasn’t been used 10 times in 20 years. There is an 8’ double vanity 24” perpendicular from the tub, with a receptacle right next to the mirror on the wall between the tub and the vanity.
That would be a definite no go with new code.
 
I am not sure what the picture is showing me. In that pic I would say you cannot have a switch anywhere within the perimeter of the tub itself.
 
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold

Again, poor wording in my opinion.

If you don't take into consideration that they are using the bathtub "Rim" for the vertical measurement only, then one could assume that it would be legal to put a receptacle within 3 ft of the tub as long as the receptacle was below the rim of the tub , which is not the case.

At least I hope that's not the case.

JAP>
 
Somewhere in the literature there should be some mention of "face of the tub" to clarify the horizontal measurement somewhere after the "(3ft) horizontally" and before the "and 2.5m (8ft) vertically,,,,

As worded, it does not.

JAP>
 
Dennis Alwon said:
What does the rim have to do with it. The rim is mention in 410.10 but that is for lighting. It should not be in this discussion. 404 is for receptacles. 406 should be the only pertinent article
Click to expand...

Dennis, you had mentioned that a "receptacle" could not be installed within 3' of the tub in post #2.

406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold.

Where in this statement does it say that you "cannot" install a receptacle within 3' of the tub if your "below" the rim of the tub?

JAP>
 
Dennis Alwon said:
What does the rim have to do with it. The rim is mention in 410.10 but that is for lighting. It should not be in this discussion. 404 is for receptacles. 406 should be the only pertinent article
Click to expand...
I agree totally.
you posted this, I figured you knew what was in it...


406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.

I wasn’t ever on another article.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
What does the rim have to do with it. The rim is mention in 410.10 but that is for lighting. It should not be in this discussion. 404 is for receptacles. 406 should be the only pertinent article
Click to expand...
406 has the word "rim" in it

406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.
Exception: In bathrooms with less than the required zone the receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be installed opposite the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold on the farthest wall within the room.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
IMO, it just means it cannot be in the shower or tub space. They added the word "Tub" to this section. You still can be within the 3' as long as you clear the tub space.

Now receptacles cannot be within 3' unless you meet the exception
Click to expand...

yeah, but you brought up receptacles.
That’s where I asked the question regarding the rim and got jumped on (chastised) in post #10
 
Hv&Lv said:
yeah, but you brought up receptacles.
That’s where I asked the question regarding the rim and got jumped on (chastised) in post #10
Click to expand...

I am sorry if you took that as a chastise. I didn't understand where the rim was mentioned. I only brought up recep. to show that receptacles had the 3' rule not switches....

Misunderstanding that's all... no problem
 
Hv&Lv said:
I agree totally.
you posted this, I figured you knew what was in it...


406.9(C) Bathtub and Shower Space.
Receptacles shall not be instal⁠led within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft) horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall threshold. The identified zone is all-encompassing and shall include the space directly over the tub or shower stall.

I wasn’t ever on another article.
Click to expand...
3 feet horizontally AND 8 feet vertically.

Vertical can be up or down from the starting point.

That said, the rim is the top of the tub not the maximum water fill determined by installing an overflow device. Might not be so clear if the point in question is the edge of inside wall of tub or outer edge of the "rim" though.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
IMO, it just means it cannot be in the shower or tub space. They added the word "Tub" to this section. You still can be within the 3' as long as you clear the tub space.

Now receptacles cannot be within 3' unless you meet the exception
Click to expand...
I agree with your opinion Dennis. The jest of my comments was to be specific with the wording the NEC has defined bathtub & shower spaces in 2020 which is similar to bathtub & shower areas. I would think they should have used the wording shower "areas." NEC 2017 bathtub & shower spaces has always been assumed the footprint area of the bath fixture which in turn related to how we defined tub & shower spaces for switches. Chapters 1-4 apply to all electrical installations so in turn a specific definition could apply to any chapter & article unless it is specifically labeled for that article. Now could a good lawyer get you convicted if someone was killed while in the tub or shower using said switch. Just pointing out what I believe could be enforceable due to the specific NEC wording. My vote was for NEC another change without dutiful research.
 
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