408.36 (D)

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jbuzz

Member
Location
United States
Is using zip ties to secure a breaker to a breaker on the opposite side of a panel adequate to satisfy the requirements when it is backfeeding the buss. I have installed several
"plate type transfer switches" which implement this method.strap.jpg
 
Last edited:
I suspect an authority having jurisdiction will have issue with it but art. 408.36(D) is the article and it does seem to allow any method
 
infinity said:
IMO no unless it a listed method provided by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...
and 408.36 does not say that IMO.

If it actually works I don't see why it would be an issue but the approved for the purpose can be pulled out anytime. Definitely an inspectors call.

(D) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protection
devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are
backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded
supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional
fastener that requires other than a pull to release the
device from the mounting means on the panel.
Click to expand...
 
What is the issue with usually a hold down kit? Is the panel not able to have one installed? It looks solid but I can see the uinspector saying if someone replaces the other breaker they'll cut the tie wrap and not reinstall it.
 
(D) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protection
devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are
backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded
supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional
fastener that requires other than a pull to release the
device from the mounting means on the panel.
Click to expand...

Most cases a zip tie installed this way could be worked loose by pulling it up over the top of the breakers.
 
At least works better than a method many guys use here. We just put a head of screw on a breaker so it looks like there was a bolt down kit installed.
 
petersonra said:
Most cases a zip tie installed this way could be worked loose by pulling it up over the top of the breakers.
Click to expand...
That section reads to me like they are referring to the circuit breaker, not the fasting means. I.e.: The overcurrent device must be secured so that a pull cannot remove the overcurrent device from the mount.

I think a zip-tie would satisfy that.
 
infinity said:
That's where my problem exists, a cable tie doesn't cut it.
Click to expand...

I agree the problem would exist with the interpretation of a "Fastener" or fastened "In Place" for that matter but I Actually looked up "Fastener" on the web a while ago and a rope used for "Lashing" something down was one example of a fastener.

I don't see where a ziptie is much different.
Although I don't like the looks of it the wording doesn't seem to prohibit it.

JAP>
 
No way -- your talking about a back fed breaker which if releases from the panel could have life safety measures -- use a listed product for the use. Tie wraps around breakers that can heat & loosen is IMO just looking for trouble. I wouldn't want to explain to a judge why a listed product was not used when & if an unforseen issue occurs. Would you use a lug rated for AL only on a copper connection cause it works? I might look at it differently if a listed product was not avaliable.
 
Last edited:
NEC 1990 was the first edition to adopt back fed devices Art 384.16(f) and per thr ROC's it was in order to comply with UL 67 standard which addresses accessories to switchboard & panelboards that includes breaker hold down devices. I tried to copy/ paste the UL 67 but failed miserably
 

Attachments

  • Back fed device UL info.jpg
    Back fed device UL info.jpg
    7 KB · Views: 5
UL 67 Panelboard and Switchboard Accessories - Component

The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities and are intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field. THE FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UL.
USE
This category covers incomplete panelboard assemblies, such as panelboard interiors. Also covered under this category are accessories intended for use with panelboards or switchboards, such as branch circuit buses for circuit breakers and switches, insulators, anti-turn devices, neutral assemblies, bonding kits, equipment grounding bars, barrier kits, back-fed unit hold-down kits, transfer kits for optional standby power systems , and the like.
 
Lets not forget the rest of the wording of 408.36(D). "by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel".

It does not define any limitations of the "fastener".

It does not mention the fastener used needing to be listed.

It does mention the function that must be performed, requiring more then a simple pull to release the breaker from the mounting means of the panel.

QO series 6 and 8 space panels - ones with a horizontal bus have a listed kit that only clamps the foot of the breaker, you still can pull the breaker enough to disconnect from the bus without too much difficulty, it just doesn't let go of the foot too easily.
 
mwm1752 said:
UL 67 Panelboard and Switchboard Accessories - Component

The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities and are intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field. THE FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UL.
USE
This category covers incomplete panelboard assemblies, such as panelboard interiors. Also covered under this category are accessories intended for use with panelboards or switchboards, such as branch circuit buses for circuit breakers and switches, insulators, anti-turn devices, neutral assemblies, bonding kits, equipment grounding bars, barrier kits, back-fed unit hold-down kits, transfer kits for optional standby power systems , and the like.
Click to expand...



So if the zip tie was included in a listed transfer kit it would be totally compliant.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top