440 volt question

[tdexxx]

Hello,
Sometimes I have to measure 440 volts for parking lot light work. My meter's range does not go up to 440 volts, though I can read 277, which is good enough to measure each phase to ground. Trouble is, because the lights are ballasted, and ballasts provide a continuous path between two phases, when one phase quits it's conductor still shows 277 volts to ground because of the way the multiple ballasts on a pole are wired together. Ideally I would be able to determine that both phases are working by measuring between them; if there's 440 volts then both phases are working, and if there's zero, then one of the phases is not working, (and I'm reading the same phase twice). But my meter doesn't go up to 440 volts. I don't need to know the exact magnitude of the voltage between phases; for the purpose of determining that both phases are working it would suffice to know that the voltage between them is significantly above 277. Is there a simple, safe, and inexpensive tool I can use to test the phases?

Thanks,
Tom

 

[ActionDave]

A good digital meter with Cat. III or IV rating can be had for less than $200.

If you want to go old school you can get a solenoid tester, aka Wiggy.

I have a Knopp K-60. Personally, I don't use mine on 480V often.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There are many inexpensive tester that go up to 600V. I am not sure I have seen many that don't go that high.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Not sure that it really matters, but aren't you in violation of NFPA70E?

http://products.insulatedtools.com/Asset/NFPA-70E-Compliance-Guide.pdf


Other 600 V Class (277 V to 600 V, nominal) Equipment -
Lighting or small power transformers (600V Max) - Note 3

Work on energized parts, including voltage testing. yes to tools and clothes.

V-Rated Tools : tools rated and tested for the maximum line-to-line
voltage upon which work will be done.

 

[hillbilly1]

It would well be worth the investment, the life you could save might be your own!

 

[cadpoint]

Hv&Lv,

Thanks for posting that Link, I will download this and study it............ Later

In respects to the OP, I must be old school but I recall (from somewhere) never have a meter that is less than what one is going to measure!

 

[twoelk]

Hello,
Sometimes I have to measure 440 volts for parking lot light work. My meter's range does not go up to 440 volts, though I can read 277, which is good enough to measure each phase to ground. Trouble is, because the lights are ballasted, and ballasts provide a continuous path between two phases, when one phase quits it's conductor still shows 277 volts to ground because of the way the multiple ballasts on a pole are wired together. Ideally I would be able to determine that both phases are working by measuring between them; if there's 440 volts then both phases are working, and if there's zero, then one of the phases is not working, (and I'm reading the same phase twice). But my meter doesn't go up to 440 volts. I don't need to know the exact magnitude of the voltage between phases; for the purpose of determining that both phases are working it would suffice to know that the voltage between them is significantly above 277. Is there a simple, safe, and inexpensive tool I can use to test the phases?

Thanks,
Tom

440?:?

 

[hurk27]

Menard's sells an Ideal solenoid tester for less then $35.00, I use the Ideal Volt-Con which is my quick grab meter I keep up front in the truck, which is the same tester but with a continuity tester built in, but I will say the last three died when I hit a 480 volt source, not the volt tester part but the continuity part, they are rated for 600 volts and have a 480 mark on the scale, I also have an Amp-Probe 680 that goes up to 750 volts AC or DC, it also measures AC/DC amps up to 750 amps which is rare for a clamp on amp meter, but great for checking DC current draw on inverters. of course I also use it to check my starters on my cars and truck to see if there dragging, and alternator to see how much output it is doing.

All I can say to the OP is if your going to be an electrician get serious and get the equipment you need to properly perform the job and learn how to use them, Even when I was working for another contractor, anytime I had a few extra bucks, I shopped around and little by little I got the tools I need, Yard sales are a great place to find many tools and test equipment at low cost, as well as E-bay (be careful though), the above Amp-Probe was found at a yard sale for $15.00, along with a Greenlee live or dead circuit tracer for $10.00, both were never used brand new in the box they came in, husband passed away and wife sold them in yard sale, now the AMP-Probe retailed for over $600.00 and that circuit tracer was over $750.00 so finds like these don't come along very often, but that is why you put back some money and keep it for these kind of finds.

An electrician without tools is like a car without gas, might look perty but you wont get far.

So if you want to get far make this a careerer not just another job with a pay check.

Heres a small list of tools and test equipment I have collected over the years not including my hand tools:

Amp-Probe with digital volt meter and frequency (great for dialing in generators)
Greenlee circuit tracer for tracing conductors in walls and finding shorts and or opens in circuits
Three Volt-Con solenoid testers.
several Fluke DVM's
500 volt Megger insulation tester.
Multi-frequency radio underground locater Great if you own a trencher or even if you don't, as it is a must tool for finding bad points in a cable underground, even tells the depth of the conductors your locating so you already know how deep they are, and its dead on, I also use it to follow conductors in walls/floors concrete you name it.
if we get into the electronic side the list can go on for ever since I have a vast collection of equipment from scopes to lab grade volt meters and testers, spectrum analyzers, and many old TV type testers, freq counters, and even some tube testers some of the stuff is dated like my Bird null point antenna analyzers as I held an FCC second class licenses for many years, but have let it go because I wasn't really using it anymore.

Some things on my wish list are:
Wide band Inferred camera (last one stolen)
Three or Four point fall of potential meter (had one but it was lost when one of my service trucks was stolen)
Wall snake camera to see down inside of walls.
A good portable Power analyzer/recorder with scope trace with ability to upload to computer.
and a few other things for some reason I cant think of at this time.

It takes time to collect this kind of equipment, but if you set your mind to it, you can and many times keeping an eye out for things at yard sales can really pay off once you know what kind of yard sales to go to.

But if you want to be a serious trouble shooter you must have at least basic tools and a good meter that will read the things that you will be repairing is a must. without them you are just blindly changing parts and hoping you get the right one, but customers do not want to pay for a parts changer, they want a service tech who can come in and fix the problem in a reasonable amount of time for the least amount of money, this is what I give my customers and it pays off because they are repeat customers.

 

[kwired]

Many good suggestions.

Let me ask you what will happen with your meter that you claim will not measure 440 volts if you accidently did connect it to 480 volts? Is it worth finding out (the hard way)? What may be even worse is what happens if it is set for measuring resistance and you accidentally cross 277 or 480 with it?

I think (but don't know for certain) you will have a hard time finding Cat III meter that will not be capable of measuring at least 600 volts, and many will probably measure 1000.

 

[iwire]

It would well be worth the investment, the life you could save might be your own!

:thumbsup:

 

[tdexxx]

Hv&Lv,

Thanks for posting that Link, I will download this and study it............ Later

In respects to the OP, I must be old school but I recall (from somewhere) never have a meter that is less than what one is going to measure!

Clearly a proper meter is needed to measure a given voltage. If I hadn't already known that, I would not have posted the question. But I do not need to measure the voltage. I only need to know that the two light supply conductors are on different phases. Measurement of the voltage between them is one way to show this. Does another safe, simple, and inexpensive way to do this exist?

Tom

 

[kwired]

Clearly a proper meter is needed to measure a given voltage. If I hadn't already known that, I would not have posted the question. But I do not need to measure the voltage. I only need to know that the two light supply conductors are on different phases. Measurement of the voltage between them is one way to show this. Does another safe, simple, and inexpensive way to do this exist?

Tom

There are many safe and relatively inexpensive voltage and continuity type testers out there and you can use many of them on 12V DC up to 480 or even 600 VAC - I strongly suggest looking into them you will use them for more than just what you addressed in this thread. You don't even have to select proper setting or even remember to turn them off as they are always on and use no power (from the internal battery) if the leads are not connected to anything.

 

[tdexxx]

Thanks to all who posted. Though I do have an electrical contractor's license in my state, I'm not an experienced electrician so all of your suggestions are helpful and appreciated. Some suggested that a wiggy solenoid tester is a good choice for my purposes. It's small, (which is important for working in a bucket where tool space is limited), simple to use and seems safe.

Regarding safety, on pole light jobs I have an assistant stationed in the circuit breaker panel room with whom I am in radio contact who turns on and off the lights I am working on so I never have to work on a live light pole. The only time I am ever near live parts in pole light work is when I ask my helper to momentarily energize a multiphase circuit to test that the conductors are live at the pole. But simply being live doesn't prove much on a multi-fixture light because even if a phase is off it will appear to be energized. That's why I need a way to measure up to 480 volts, to prove that both conductors are live and on different phases.

Tom

 

[Little Bill]

Thanks to all who posted. Though I do have an electrical contractor's license in my state, I'm not an experienced electrician so all of your suggestions are helpful and appreciated. Some suggested that a wiggy solenoid tester is a good choice for my purposes. It's small, (which is important for working in a bucket where tool space is limited), simple to use and seems safe.

Regarding safety, on pole light jobs I have an assistant stationed in the circuit breaker panel room with whom I am in radio contact who turns on and off the lights I am working on so I never have to work on a live light pole. The only time I am ever near live parts in pole light work is when I ask my helper to momentarily energize a multiphase circuit to test that the conductors are live at the pole. But simply being live doesn't prove much on a multi-fixture light because even if a phase is off it will appear to be energized. That's why I need a way to measure up to 480 volts, to prove that both conductors are live and on different phases.

Tom

I have many tools, (some may even say some of them are toys) but if I'm not mistaken, a good meter was one of, if not the first, ones that I bought.

Go get you a good meter rated to at least 600V and a good Cat rating. Doesn't have to be expensive. I think even Walmart has a Popular Mechanic brand that would work. IMO, if you're going to be working on this type voltage, a good meter is a must!

 

[hillbilly1]

Thanks to all who posted. Though I do have an electrical contractor's license in my state, I'm not an experienced electrician so all of your suggestions are helpful and appreciated. Some suggested that a wiggy solenoid tester is a good choice for my purposes. It's small, (which is important for working in a bucket where tool space is limited), simple to use and seems safe.

Regarding safety, on pole light jobs I have an assistant stationed in the circuit breaker panel room with whom I am in radio contact who turns on and off the lights I am working on so I never have to work on a live light pole. The only time I am ever near live parts in pole light work is when I ask my helper to momentarily energize a multiphase circuit to test that the conductors are live at the pole. But simply being live doesn't prove much on a multi-fixture light because even if a phase is off it will appear to be energized. That's why I need a way to measure up to 480 volts, to prove that both conductors are live and on different phases.

Tom

Just a side note, I know you trust your assistant to turn on and off the circuits at your command, but OSHA does not, they will want you to personally lock and tag out the circuits your working on, with you having the only key to your lock. just food for thought.

 

[tdexxx]

Just a side note, I know you trust your assistant to turn on and off the circuits at your command, but OSHA does not, they will want you to personally lock and tag out the circuits your working on, with you having the only key to your lock. just food for thought.

That is good to know. Thank you.

Tom

 

[Hv&Lv]

Clearly a proper meter is needed to measure a given voltage. If I hadn't already known that, I would not have posted the question. But I do not need to measure the voltage.

Sorry, I just went by you original post question...

Hello,
Sometimes I have to measure 440 volts for parking lot light work. My meter's range does not go up to 440 volts,

 

[kwired]

Just a side note, I know you trust your assistant to turn on and off the circuits at your command, but OSHA does not, they will want you to personally lock and tag out the circuits your working on, with you having the only key to your lock. just food for thought.

There was an electrocution in Northeastern Nebraska - I believe about a year ago. Father and son were working on irrigation equipment. Most irrigation equipment around here is common for POCO to provide disconnect on pole near public road - the equipment it feeds is often 1400 feet away and sometimes even more. The father was at disconnect near the road with radio and son was working on other end using radio to tell father when to turn it on and off. A miscommunication issue from what I understand is what caused the accident.

 

[Cleveland Apprentice]

I thought 440 is obsolete. It's still used????

 

[sbutler]

I glazed over most of the thread when I saw you are using a meter not suited for more than 277V on a circuit that could be 480VAC. Do yourself a favor as many in this thread have suggested.....spend a few more dollars on a 600VAC meter. I have seen meters (mostly the very cheap ones) explode in the user's hands due to overvoltage. At the end of the day, someone, somewhere is waiting at home for you......

Steve