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480 wye service feeding 480 delta MCC

Merry Christmas
Location
Wyoming
Occupation
Electrician
Is it a code violation to have a 480 wye service feed a disconnect, and then feed a 480 delta MCC without pulling a neutral from the service to the MCC? The MCC runs an attire oilfield pad, and they have a 480delta to 208 wye transformer to feed all 120 circuits, everything else is 480 delta.

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texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Is it a code violation to have a 480 wye service feed a disconnect, and then feed a 480 delta MCC without pulling a neutral from the service to the MCC? The MCC runs an attire oilfield pad, and they have a 480delta to 208 wye transformer to feed all 120 circuits, everything else is 480 delta.

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Forget "code violation" and think this through. Your MCC is not delta or Y. The code requires a compliant fault return path. Most services today are grounded 480/277Y in this kind of application. This means you have to bring the neutral from the POCO to the first means of disconnect and bond it. From that point you only need an EGC downstream if you have only line to line load.
In your case, if the service disconnect is separate from the MCC, your bond is at that disco. and everything to the MCC (assuming the MCC loads just supply line loads) just requires an EGC along with the phase conductors.
If your MCC has a main and is the service disconnect then you just bring the neutral to that point.
Your post indicates you may not have a grasp on basic code fundamentals of grounding and bonding and the physics of fault return paths. This has nothing to do with wye vs delta.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
That's where I get confused, so they're bonding the ground to the neutral at the 208/120 xfmr

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Forget the Wye Delta supply thing for a moment and just think of it as a 3 phase 3-wire feeder to the MCC. After that you have a 480 Delta/Wye transformer which creates a neutral for the 120 volt loads. That neutral gets bonded as it would in any Delta/Wye transformer.
 
Location
Wyoming
Occupation
Electrician
Forget "code violation" and think this through. Your MCC is not delta or Y. The code requires a compliant fault return path. Most services today are grounded 480/277Y in this kind of application. This means you have to bring the neutral from the POCO to the first means of disconnect and bond it. From that point you only need an EGC downstream if you have only line to line load.
In your case, if the service disconnect is separate from the MCC, your bond is at that disco. and everything to the MCC (assuming the MCC loads just supply line loads) just requires an EGC along with the phase conductors.
If your MCC has a main and is the service disconnect then you just bring the neutral to that point.
Your post indicates you may not have a grasp on basic code fundamentals of grounding and bonding and the physics of fault return paths. This has nothing to do with wye vs delta.
Yeah ok I didn't need some egotistical boot licker to come and tell me I don't have a grasp on basic code. I was asking because normally most 480v services bring the neutral and I didn't understand why they would allow the bonding of the neutral derived from the 208v xfmr to be bonded to the egc when there's no grounded conductor back to the service disconnect.

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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I was asking because normally most 480v services bring the neutral and I didn't understand why they would allow the bonding of the neutral derived from the 208v xfmr to be bonded to the egc when there's no grounded conductor back to the service disconnect.
The 480 Delta to 208Y/120 volt transformer has no neutral connection on the primary so the bonding of the secondary X0 has no bearing on whether or not the feeder supplying the MCC is 3-wire without a neutral or 4-wire with a neutral.
 
I was asking because normally most 480v services bring the neutral and I didn't understand why they would allow the bonding of the neutral derived from the 208v xfmr to be bonded to the egc when there's no grounded conductor back to the service disconnect.

The transformer secondary is the where the 208 system neutral begins/ends. It doesn't need, nor want, to go back to the 480 service.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Is it a code violation to have a 480 wye service feed a disconnect, and then feed a 480 delta MCC without pulling a neutral from the service to the MCC? The MCC runs an attire oilfield pad, and they have a 480delta to 208 wye transformer to feed all 120 circuits, everything else is 480 delta.

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Those comments put our understanding of your knowledge at risk.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Is it a code violation to have a 480 wye service feed a disconnect, and then feed a 480 delta MCC without pulling a neutral from the service to the MCC? The MCC runs an attire oilfield pad, and they have a 480delta to 208 wye transformer to feed all 120 circuits, everything else is 480 delta.
We're confused by the aforementioned 480 Delta. Unless there is a 480-480 Wye/Delta transformer in the feeder there is no Delta. You have a Wye service with 4 conductors to the service disconnect. On the load side of the service disconnect you have a 3-wire feeder to the MCC. That feeder is still Wye. You can confirm this by testing the 3Ø's at the MCC to ground. A-G, B-G, C-G, would all be 277 volts which would indicate that the system connected at the MCC is Wye.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Yeah ok I didn't need some egotistical boot licker to come and tell me I don't have a grasp on basic code. I was asking because normally most 480v services bring the neutral and I didn't understand why they would allow the bonding of the neutral derived from the 208v xfmr to be bonded to the egc when there's no grounded conductor back to the service disconnect.

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Sorry, I did not mean to offend you. I would only suggest you use this as a career learning opportunity. I happen to have a close relationship with the Chief Electrical Inspector for the State of Wyoming. He likes to educate, not just enforce licensing and code. If you PM me I'll give you his private cell phone number. He won't even require you to tell him your name or job site. I'm certain that he would like to help you better understand your situation.
 
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