480V flow switch

[RumRunner]

As the saying goes, there are several ways to kill a cat (apologies to cat lovers.)

The options are available for the taking, but OP is not keen on going into a more complicated setup.
He doesn't even want to install a control transformer.
One viable option is deploying a bladder tank, but it's not simple as one might think. And it's not cheap either.

I'm using two of these bladder tanks. . .one for my Reverse Osmosis at home and another one for my RV.
The one at home is trouble-free (well . . .almost) because line water pressure is stable. Water pressure after the regulator is around 60 psi to 80 psi. For reverse osmosis to work properly-- the line pressure must not be below 45 psi.

To recharge the bladder is the tricky part. . . too high an air pressure will prevent the tank from getting full while low bladder air pressure will result in low water delivery. . .it will just trickle at the tap.

If you think that the unit in the house is PITA, the one in the RV is 20X more PITA.
Several campgrounds with their own water supply system operate in a hodge-podge of water settings. Some operate on too high a pressure depending on number of occupants in order to compensate demand.

I have changed my pressure regulator a few times. It often gets blown wide open and mess up the faucet valve seat and water valve for the toilet.

Perhaps, if we can setup crowd-funding (GO FUND ME) for OP, so he can use those recommended remedy to address the problem. . .and he'd be a "happy camper" so to speak.

 

[GeorgeB]

But... I have NEVER seen a positive displacement well pump for water. Oil, yes, but not water.

Water hydraulics is not rare. We see it commonly in rubber processing industries where oil would destroy the product. Indeed, for environmental reasons, it is showing up in mobile equipment.

I'm ignoring the very common 50-50 mixture of ethylene glycol and water used in hot (steel mill) hydraulics.

Have you ever used a pressure washer? Positive displacement. How about water jet cutting/machining? Positive displacement. We're in the 1500-50,000 psi range with these. Yeah, 50 THOUSAND.

Danfoss, one of the world leaders in hydraulics, see https://danfoss-webex-umbraco-prodg...ts/water-and-wastewater/dcs/water-hydraulics/ makes a range of products, as do many others.

 

[RumRunner]

Water jet cutting is a staple in modern and specialized machine shops. There is one (solo) machine shop located in a small unincorporated city in L.A. County that I happened to do some work some years back.
There is another big machine shop in the San Fernando Valley that provide services for start-ups and established machining businesses that make parts for PROTO TYPE machines.

They also cater to businesses that manufacture precision (robotic) machines for making computer processors. Really tiny parts. They also use LASERS.
At the time--they were manufacturing parts for Lockheed Martin Aerospace shuttle engines. A proto type is displayed in the now-closed Lockheed Headquarter front lawn.

The County and City of L.A. drove the business out for polluting ground water.
Water jet cutting is preferred in making parts meant for machines that are being built for trial runs for a new invention for example. In other words not for mass rollout yet --mostly.

It is clean machining, no fumes, and cutting medium is recycled. Filtered water and cutting abrasives are reused. Filtering involved separating the abrasives and “slag” for reuse.
Yeah, those positive displacement pumps--working at 50,000 psi can blow the brains out and pop the eyeballs. They are usually isolated inside plexiglass enclosures.

CNC controls allow them to be operated remotely and minimal human intervention.

Just a little bit of history.

 

[Jraef]

Just to reiterate and emphasize what I said (because it appears that people are misreading it.)

But... I have NEVER seen a positive displacement well pump for water. Oil, yes, but not water.

 

[hillbilly1]

Just to reiterate and emphasize what I said (because it appears that people are misreading it.)

People on here would never go off topic! LOL! It was very clear the op was talking about an ordinary well pump.

 

[RumRunner]

. . . go off topic! LOL! It was very clear the op was talking about an ordinary well pump.

OP's post is about well pump. Drawing water from wells can employ different techniques. Dropping a centrifugal pump in a well, dipping a suction hose/pump in a water table or pressurizing a cavity to push water up often called FRACKING are techniques for extracting gas or liquid from the ground.

Having a well is the most economical. It's been done for millenia. You can extract water using buckets or the the artesian well type hand pump.
Artesian well hand pump is a good example of postive displacement pump.

OP did not mention whether he has a centrifugal or a positive displacement pump. (re-read his post)
The ambiguity surrounding the post is what led the different suggestions offered by members.

Regardless of what OP has (centrifugal or positive displacement). . .the principles to control the motor remain the same.

Categorizing the post as OFF TOPIC is the result of lack of in-depth understanding of what it takes to find a viable solution to OP's dilemma.

Don't denigrate people with good intentions.

 

[hillbilly1]

OP's post is about well pump. Drawing water from wells can employ different techniques. Dropping a centrifugal pump in a well, dipping a suction hose/pump in a water table or pressurizing a cavity to push water up often called FRACKING are techniques for extracting gas or liquid from the ground.

Having a well is the most economical. It's been done for millenia. You can extract water using buckets or the the artesian well type hand pump.
Artesian well hand pump is a good example of postive displacement pump.

OP did not mention whether he has a centrifugal or a positive displacement pump. (re-read his post)
The ambiguity surrounding the post is what led the different suggestions offered by members.

Regardless of what OP has (centrifugal or positive displacement). . .the principles to control the motor remain the same.

Categorizing the post as OFF TOPIC is the result of lack of in-depth understanding of what it takes to find a viable solution to OP's dilemma.

Don't denigrate people with good intentions.

Hmmm, the op is not talking about fracking, he is talking about a well pump used for washdown, common sense would say an expensive positive displacement pump would not be used in this situation. You are trying to complicate something that is not complicated at all.

 

[retirede]

OP's post is about well pump. Drawing water from wells can employ different techniques. Dropping a centrifugal pump in a well, dipping a suction hose/pump in a water table or pressurizing a cavity to push water up often called FRACKING are techniques for extracting gas or liquid from the ground.

Having a well is the most economical. It's been done for millenia. You can extract water using buckets or the the artesian well type hand pump.
Artesian well hand pump is a good example of postive displacement pump.

OP did not mention whether he has a centrifugal or a positive displacement pump. (re-read his post)
The ambiguity surrounding the post is what led the different suggestions offered by members.

Regardless of what OP has (centrifugal or positive displacement). . .the principles to control the motor remain the same.

Categorizing the post as OFF TOPIC is the result of lack of in-depth understanding of what it takes to find a viable solution to OP's dilemma.

Don't denigrate people with good intentions.

Your definition of fracking is absolutely incorrect.

 

[RumRunner]

Your definition of fracking is absolutely incorrect.

Fracking from Britannica:

Fracking, in natural gas and petroleum production, injection of a fluid at high pressure into an underground rock formation in order to open fissures and allow trapped gas or crude oil to flow through a pipe to a wellhead at the surface. Fracking has raised concerns over its economic and environmental consequences.

I agree that the original definition of FRACKING is not what I stated. Languages and word usage evolve and what they mean in today's generation are not what they mean from the get-go.

 

[RumRunner]

Hmmm, the op is not talking about fracking, he is talking about a well pump used for washdown, common sense would say an expensive positive displacement pump would not be used in this situation. You are trying to complicate something that is not complicated at all.

You are totally obfuscating the real gist of the topic.
Fracking was brought up as another way of extracting liquid-- as a corollary-- on the ability to draw liquid.
In this instance, OP is having a well to draw water from the ground. It doesn't matter what is available to him.

His goal is to control the pump via pressure change and fluid movement in the pipe (flow).
Fracking, sucking or in the case of centrifugal pump. . .pushing the liquid, and it doesn't make any difference on what he is trying accomplish.

 

[GoldDigger]

...
Having a well is the most economical. It's been done for millenia. You can extract water using buckets or the the artesian well type hand pump.
Artesian well hand pump is a good example of postive displacement pump.
...

It may be slightly off topic, but an artesian well is, by definition, a well whose water is under sufficient underground pressure that it does not require a pump. I suspect that you are talking about the lever type pump you often see in movies. These can either be a suction type for shallow wells with piston and valve near the surface inside the pump body (and often requiring priming) or a positive displacement pump which is actually located near the bottom of the well and activated by a long rod.

 

[RumRunner]

It may be slightly off topic, but an artesian well is, by definition, a well whose water is under sufficient underground pressure that it does not require a pump. I suspect that you are talking about the lever type pump you often see in movies. These can either be a suction type for shallow wells with piston and valve near the surface inside the pump body (and often requiring priming) or a positive displacement pump which is actually located near the bottom of the well and activated by a long rod.

Not all artesian wells have inherent pressure to make water squirt out without the benefit of suction pump. My vacation cottage in Northern Ca has one. I was required by the City of Modoc to have a water source before I was given a permit to build the cottage.
It is located in the middle of nowhere.

This artesian well was installed by the well-drilling contractor in the area --in close proximity to the lake.
I was expecting that water will just squirt out without a pump, but the contractor advised against it.
He drove the suction pipe well above the water table to prevent squirting.

His logic is: if I reside in the cottage full time it would be OK to go deeper and have a holding tank for steady supply and not operate the lever type pump like they do in western movies.

 

[GoldDigger]

Not all artesian wells have inherent pressure to make water squirt out without the benefit of suction pump. My vacation cottage in Northern Ca has one. I was required by the City of Modoc to have a water source before I was given a permit to build the cottage.
It is located in the middle of nowhere.

This artesian well was installed by the well-drilling contractor in the area --in close proximity to the lake.
I was expecting that water will just squirt out without a pump, but the contractor advised against it.
He drove the suction pipe well above the water table to prevent squirting.

His logic is: if I reside in the cottage full time it would be OK to go deeper and have a holding tank for steady supply and not operate the lever type pump like they do in western movies.

I'll give you a partial on that one.
There are two definitions of artesian at play here. The common usage, found on a number of definition websites, is a well from which the water emerges naturally as a result of the pressure in the aquifer it comes from. But the precise definition, as used in the trade, is that an artesian well is any well which originates in a confined aquifer and is under pressure within that aquifer. A flowing artesian well is one for which the pressure is sufficient to bring the water to the surface without a pump. (Side note: if there is an unconfined aquifer above the confined aquifer, then it is critical that the well be cased to keep the artesian water from just mixing into the unconfined aquifer above it.)
But I do have a problem with "the suction pipe being driven well above the water table to prevent squirting." If the bottom of the suction pipe is above the water table (unconfined aquifer) you will not get any water from the well. If the bottom of the suction pipe is above the top of the confined aquifer, you may get water, but it will not be artesian water. If the top of the suction pipe is above the pressure level of the artesian source (drilled higher up on a hillside for example), then you would have a non-flowing artesian well. Was that the case for your well?

Okay, we are really off topic. So to bend it back: If the OP's well is a flowing artesian well, then either a pressure switch or a flow switch would work.

 

[chris kennedy]

I'll try to explain the well. 5hp pump sits above ground. 2" pipe goes into the ground to water table. Pump requires priming to start the process. Which type of well/pump is this?

 

[ActionDave]

I'll try to explain the well. 5hp pump sits above ground. 2" pipe goes into the ground to water table. Pump requires priming to start the process. Which type of well/pump is this?

Centrifugal.

 

[__dan]

I wired a (town) golf course irrigation pump, 10 hp 10 stage Gould's pump above grade in a pump shed, sucking from the nearby pond. Public Works job, plans and spec town money, designed by a "golf course irrigation expert".

There was no buffer or bladder tank, triggered on flow not pressure from the loads opening, single pass with no bypass, the pump output into a one way PRV pressure reducing valve, then out to the field. Probably 8" pipe in the shed.

All good except I checked out the custom fancy control panel and saw in the logic that for the off condition it was going to go to a zero flow condition and pump into the closed PRV for three minutes on a timer. I figured the 10 hp motor would not care about the closed PRV but the 10 stage pump might care. I raised concern as a sub and they paid the design expert $1000 to travel down from his state north of here to say to would work just fine, (you) install it as is, and travel back.

I also called Gould's for their opinion on it and the rep said "where is that pump I'm going to pull the warranty off it".

The pump did work just fine and in a matter of months broke the 400 psi pressure gauge in the line side of the PRV and mechanically pushed in its gut (what I was told after the rebuild shop opened it up).

For your application, possibly you could go with a fixed open distribution system, always open spray heads matched to the pump output, then just run the pump a a one shot timer with a pushbutton. One shot timer gives the maint guy something to do vs programmale cycles.

 

[RumRunner]

. . . .But I do have a problem with "the suction pipe being driven well above the water table to prevent squirting." If the bottom of the suction pipe is above the water table (unconfined aquifer) you will not get any water from the well. If the bottom of the suction pipe is above the top of the confined aquifer, you may get water, but it will not be artesian water. If the top of the suction pipe is above the pressure level of the artesian source (drilled higher up on a hillside for example), then you would have a non-flowing artesian well. Was that the case for your well?

Okay, we are really off topic. So to bend it back: If the OP's well is a flowing artesian well, then either a pressure switch or a flow switch would work.

Well, (no pun intended). . . not really.

Based on your analysis on how water is extracted from an artesian well and therefore taking advantage of natural, inherent pressure from the aquifer. . . your conclusion does have merit.
However, the principles involved on how positive displacement pumps--on how they work has been overlooked—big time.

As the name implies POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT pumps work on the principle of creating negative pressure at the pump intake for gas, fluid or slurry (think cement mixture) being pumped to a three- story building.

When the pump is working, it creates a vacuum at the suction point where the inlet is located. This evacuated “chamber” is where the negative pressure is happening. You now have a vacuum where pressure is lower than atmospheric pressure (14 psi) at sea level . This atmospheric pressure pushes the material (liquid) into the evacuated space.

The created negative pressure was created by the pump. . . and voila. . . the positive pressure is now supplanted by negative pressure.
Hence, the term POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT where positive pressure has been displaced (removed).

Now, going back to the suction pipe that is higher than the water table.

When you start bringing the piston of the lever pump up and down--you are essentially creating a vacuum at the vicinity of the suction pipe.
This evacuated chamber is where water would rush in to fill the vacuum and therefore-- the artesian well piston pump will push the column of water up the suction pipe.

And with this simple application of Physics--everyone gets their thirst quenched.

 

[GoldDigger]

Or the piston of the well pump can sit below the water level and a valve in the piston opens to allow water to move into the space above the piston as the piston descends As the piston rises the valve closes allowing the piston to lift the water column above it up the well casing. No negative pressure involved. As the piston rises the foot valve, below the piston, opens to allow water to flow back into the space below the piston under the combination of atmospheric pressure, artesian pressure and the weight of the water column in the well. No suction ever involved, IMHO.
These are two different types of pump. The suction pump can only work with shallow wells. Or deep artesian wells where the standing water column is close to the surface