56 volts on ground

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FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
Ok so I had to move a box the other day and whoever did the work previously wrapped the grounding conductor around the mounting screw. This is romex old residential work. As I was taking it apart I noticed the ground arcing to the box. Now I have it apart and with the grounds separated. I used my digital meter and hooked the ground in series and got 56 volts, I used my wiggy and didn't get any reading. But I did have a small arc. Does anybody have any ideas, poor ground/neutral bond at panel, I started going through the wiring and found the TV and cable are on this circuit however when unplugged the voltage remains. I would think phantom voltage after my wiggy failed to detect voltage, but why then the arc.

Any ideas through them my way and hope I everybody had a decent Christmas.

Thanx in advance
Jeff
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
While I can't say for certain the cause, I suggest you take a long enough extension cord, plug it into a known good outlet, then use the outlet end as your reference for testing. Voltage on a ground can be coming from either side. At 56 volts, phantom or not, the arcing says you need to find the cause...
 

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
Well I located and turned the circuit off and the voltage went away, same circuit as issue. So Im now still wondering because there is nothing on the circuit I checked the voltage to a grounded switch box cover and found same voltage. Im gonna go from panel. But ztill stumped.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
What is the box connected to? It really sounds like a floated grounding conductor to me and you are reading phantom voltage. (yes that type of voltage can make a single spark when the conductor touches another conductive object)
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
151226-2343 EST

FREEBALL:

Use a high impedance meter for all measurements, and when you want a low impedance then shunt the high impedance voltmeter with a resistor (possibly a 15 120 V incandescent bulb).

First, go to the main panel measure the voltage between the neutral and EGC bus bars. Should be in the low mV range.

Check voltage from neutral bus to water line. Check from neutral bus to a screwdriver in the earth outside. These voltages should be very low.

Connect the long extension cord neutral wire to the neutrtal bus. This neutral bus at the main panel now becomes your reference point for all trouble measurements.

Check the voltage to your EGC that you believe comes from the main panel. Should be low, like low mV. Check to the isolated EGC, likely reads from a few volts to close to 120 V. Shunt the meter with a low impedance, the 15 W bulb. What is the voltage and does the bulb glow? A 15 W bulb with no glow might be a resistance of 50 ohms to somewhere less than 960 ohms. 960 ohms with a voltage of 120 across it is 15 W. At room temperature and no current thru the bulb the resistance is about 960/12.8 = 75 ohms. If you read 1 volt, then current is about 1/75 or about 10 mA. If you are small like this, then use a 1000 ohm 10 W resistor to measure current. With 1000 ohms you will read 1 mA per volt. With a 10 W 1000 ohms resistor don't exceed 100 V very long, that is, 100 mA.

Capacitive coupling from 120 V to a floating EGC conductor in a residential situation probably won't exceed 1 mA.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
151227-2442 EST

FREEBALL:

Some measurements from my home:

Total home load is about 1700 W and I don't know the balance.

At main panel ---
Phase A to neutral 123.7 V,
Phase B to neutral 123.4 V.

Neutral bus bar to ground bus bar 0.8 mV.
Neutral bus bar to copper water pipe as it comes out of the floor 2.0 mV.

It was inconvenient at the time to measure to a point in the backyard, but I expect less than a volt. My water pipe is an extremely good ground rod as it runs about 150 ft to the street water tap.

The purpose of these measurements is to get handle on the quality of your reference point, and to possibly uncover some unexpected unknown problem.


To your specific problem. This was created by you when you opened the EGC path.

Next some measurements on a nearly 250 ft coil of Romex, #14 w grd, to illustrate the affect of the capacitive coupling between the conductors. Note: meters have an input impedance that is mostly resistive plus a small amount shunt capacitance.

A typical digital meter such as a Fluke has a resistive input value of about 11 megohms shunted by a small amount of shunt capacitance. This input impedance remains about constant for all input ranges. A recent, possibly the last 50 years, Simpson 260 has an AC input impedance that varies with the range setting, and is 5000 ohms/volt. On the 250 V range this is 1,250,000 ohms shunted by a small amount of capacitance. This also corresponds to an I load of 0.2 mA at 250 V input. On the 10 V range this is also 0.2 mA at full scale as would be expected.

Experiment on the above mentioned roll of Romex.

Measured capacitance:

White to EGC, black floating --- 5320 pfd = 0.005,32 ufd.
Black to EGC, white floating --- 4800 pfd = 0.004,80 ufd.

This forms a capacitive voltage divider. With 123 V applied between black and white the voltage readings using a Fluke 27 are:
Floating EGC to white --- 55.2 V.
Floating EGC to black --- 65.5 V.
The sum of 55.2 + 65.5 = 120.7 V. You would expect 123 V. The difference may result from the meter input capacitance.

Theoretically the equivalent circuit relative to white is a voltage source of 123 * 4800/ ( 4800 + 5320 ) = 123 * 4800 / 10120 = 58.3 V in series with a capacitance of 0.01012 ufd. At 60 Hz the capacitive reactance is about 230,000 ohms. This is small campared to 11 M-ohm. As an approximation the voltage reading should be about 58.3 V with the Fluke. Meter input capacitance is possibly part of the reason for the difference between theory and measurement.

Your section of isolated cable is likely much shorter than 250 ft, possibly 25 ft. So we can expect a greater difference between an idealized 1/2 of the source voltage and a meter reading. If you used a Simpson 260 on the 250 V range the voltage would be less than your 56 V. Probably much less.

Almost certainly your problem is a so called phantom voltage.

A current measurement using a 1000 ohm resistor would provide an estimate of the length of the isolated EGC.

.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
151226-2343 EST

FREEBALL:

Use a high impedance meter for all measurements, and when you want a low impedance then shunt the high impedance voltmeter with a resistor (possibly a 15 120 V incandescent bulb).

...

I would never use a high impedance meter as the first tool for testing dwelling unit systems. There is no reason to do that, and if you don't really understand, that type of meter will lead you in the wrong direction.
 
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