#6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

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Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

I have installed several of these type installations and have always used a #10 wire based on 250.122. The circuit never exceeded 60amps. I had a spa salesman tell me that I needed to install a #6 wire to a groundrod he said was required at all spas according to the code but he was up in the night. I have never seen a requirement for a #6 EGC on any that I have installed.
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by buck33k:
I was told that some hot tub manufacturers require the EGC to be the same size as the phase conductors and neutral. As an example, #6cu EGC and #6cu phase conductors.
Has any one seen this?
Thanks
Buck
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680.6 directs us to 250 for the grounding.
250.122 indicates that the EGC be sized to the OCP.
If the OCP were 100A, a #8 EGC would meet code....
if the OCP were 60A, a # 10 would meet code...
if the OCP were 40A, a #10 would meet code...

BUT>>>680.74 would also direct us to us a minimum #8 EGC.

Anything under a #8 would NOT meet code.

Least we not forget that code is MINIMUM...and the manufacturers instructions may very well exceed "minimum requirements".

EDITED: 680.74 reference is incorrect...read on...

[ February 04, 2006, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by gary b:
I have installed several of these type installations and have always used a #10 wire based on 250.122.
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EDIT:
Deleted erroneous code reference.
Erroneous references remain above for all to see the error of MY ways - and not commit the same sin. :)

Thanks to Ryan for correcting me.

[ February 04, 2006, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

I may not have been clear enough. 680.74 refers to bonding metal piping systems....#8 solid required.

My reference was to EGC run with branch circuit exceeding the requirements of 250.122.
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by ryan_618:
680.74 has nothing to do with equipment grounding.
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So your saying I went to far (680.74), and should have stopped at 680.6/250.122?
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Regardless of using 680.74 or 680.6 IMO if the instructions say full size then full size is required per 110.3(B).
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Bob,
Regardless of using 680.74 or 680.6 IMO if the instructions say full size then full size is required per 110.3(B).
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Only if the full size EGC is required by the actual listing, not if it is only a mnaufacturer's instruction.
Don
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Bob,
Regardless of using 680.74 or 680.6 IMO if the instructions say full size then full size is required per 110.3(B).
Click to expand...
Only if the full size EGC is required by the actual listing, not if it is only a mnaufacturer's instruction.
Don
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I am of the same opinion as iwire...if manufac. spec is higher than code minimum, why would that be wrong? The equipment would have come with the UL listing that indicates a #6 EGC?
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
Bob,
Regardless of using 680.74 or 680.6 IMO if the instructions say full size then full size is required per 110.3(B).
Click to expand...
Only if the full size EGC is required by the actual listing, not if it is only a mnaufacturer's instruction.
Don
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I figured you would say that. :D

But your statement is not true. ;)

by me.
IMO if the instructions say full size then full size is required per 110.3(B)
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That is my opinion.

In my opinion it is better to follow the instructions than to worry about what is and is not included in the listing.

Also I am not as sure as you are that all included instructions are not part of the listing.

We both know that becomes an issue with classified breakers that UL does not answer.
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

I've seen UL go a lot of different ways on this issue. Here is an example that I just found, which can be found HERE

1.3
(E)
Q
Section 110.3(B) requires Listed equipment to be used in accordance with the instructions included in the Listing or labeling. Are instructions on stick on labels part of the Listing or things the manufacturer would like to see in the installation?
A
It is difficult to give a definitive response without more details. In general, however, if the marking is required by the applicable UL Standard, then it?s required to be applied to the product at the factory. If there are any questions regarding whether any marking is
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Here is something else:
6.3
Q.
Can UL provide installation instructions for Listed products on UL?s website?
A.
UL does not intend to provide manufacturers installation instructions on our website. UL Listed products are required to be provided with installation instructions when they leave the factory and these are critical in determining compliance with NEC Section 110.3(B) in the field.
Click to expand...

[ February 04, 2006, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Bob,
As I have stated in the past, I will not agree that all manufacturer's instructions are part of the listing and labeling as long as UL has "classified" breakers. UL cannot have it both ways, they have to pick one or the other. There is no panel board manufacturer that does not have instructions that say to only use their breakers, yet UL "classifies" breakers made by other manufactures for use in that panel and tells us that the use of these breakers does not violate 110.l3(B). It is very clear to me that all manufacture's instructions are not 110.3(B) instructions.
Don
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
UL cannot have it both ways, they have to pick one or the other.
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Someone has yet to tell UL that, as evidenced by Ryan's post. :p


Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
It is very clear to me that all manufacture's instructions are not 110.3(B) instructions.
Don
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I have yet to be hauled into court over my wiring and I do not expect to be. However I try to wire like I will be in court over my decisions.

IMO if I choose to ignore the manufacturers instructions and something (anything) happens it will be a just another way for the manufacturer to put the blame on me.

Attorney: Did you see the instructions that specified a 6 AWG EGC.

Me: Yes.

Attorney: But you chose to ignore it.

Me: Yes.

Attorney: Can you explain why?

Me: Er.. well.. The NEC does not require the full size EGC.

Attorney: Are you familiar with NEC 110.3(B)?

Me: Yes.

Attorney: Why did violate 110.3(B)?

Me: I did not feel this instruction was part of the listing.

Attorney: Do you have any reason to believe that it was not part of the listing?

Me: No because UL does not make it clear what instructions are part of the listing....


IMO it is prudent to assume all instructions are part of the listing unless evidence is in hand to prove otherwise.

JMO (and my ramblings :p ) Bob
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

I have benefited from the above discussion (as usual.)
Tomorrow I go out to finish the hot tub installation. I will be pulling a #6 ground as it is the decision of the shop owner/supervisor although I have no document requiring it. No problem.
What I question is how some of the products ever get a UL listing. I had the SQ D disconnect mounted, but found I couldn't land the conductors in the GFI breaker. The lugs were too close to the bottom of the enclosure and too near the conduit entry.
The hot tub (new) is another story. I has a tightly filled plastic control box with two 1/2" KO's and one adjustable clamp approximately 3/4". (cable clamp???) I'll be using 3/4 nonmetallic liquitite flex inside the tub frame. I anticipate difficulties here.
Just my personal opinion, based on this and other listed equipment I have installed, UL should include in its criteria, wire bending space and conductor volume along with good design in general as long as we have to conform to their stamp of approval.
Buck

[ February 05, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: buck33k ]
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Bob,
I have yet to be hauled into court over my wiring and I do not expect to be. However I try to wire like I will be in court over my decisions.
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That is not my point, my point is that the instructions that are provided by the manufacturer are not, for the most part, instructions that are part of the listing and labeling. Yes, even if they are not part of the listing and labeling, noncompliance could result in a problem in civil court. However there are any number of code compliant things that we do that could result in civil liability.
Don
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
That is not my point, my point is that the instructions that are provided by the manufacturer are not, for the most part, instructions that are part of the listing and labeling.
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For the most part?

How do you know that?

How does anyone know that?

Even UL does not seem to know.

What would your advice be?

Not trying to be a PITA but IMO instructions that specifically call out wiring methods are very likely to be part of the listing.

Voltage, current, conductor temp rating, MCA, MOCP, terminal ratings and conductor sizes are all specific electrical requirements.

Bob
 
Re: #6 equiptment grnd on 50A circuit

Bob,
Not trying to be a PITA but IMO instructions that specifically call out wiring methods are very likely to be part of the listing.
Click to expand...
I just don't agree that the wiring methods are likely to be part of the listing. That is not what UL tests for...they test for compliance with a product standard...as far as I know the product standards do not specify the installation method.
Don
 
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