#6 GEC or Greater

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Basically if you are saying the ONLY GEC present is the Ground Rods then you are not required to run anything larger than # 6 AWG to them....period.

(C) Continuous Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous
length without a splice or joint except as permitted in (1) through (4):
(1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors
listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
(2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a
grounding electrode conductor.
(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) and grounding electrode
conductor(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar
not less than 6 mm ? 50 mm ( 1/ 4 in. ? 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely
fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be
made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process.
(4) Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A).

Why not simply install a buss below the panel to allow your connections of each of the items shown versus inside the enclosure?

2005 NEC allows this but based on what I see your sizing is correct, someone else may have a better opinion for you.

My question is are your water pipe and steel simply part of the bonding or required to be connected to the GES as GEC's, is this the case?

The biggest questions is....is that Structual Steel the GEC...why use the Rods?
 
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hmmm...

You need to define a few things......

1.) Is your Water Pipe metal feeding the building and 10' in contact with the earth before entering?

2.) Is your steel structure part of your GE....

3.) If # 2 is YES, why need the ground rods?

Important factors I would think...agree?
 
As drawn you will not meet NEC minimums, the GEC from the building steel / water must terminate on the neutral bar or between the neutral bar and the service point. 250.24(A)(1)

If you move the building steel GEC off the lug kit and directly to the neutral bar you will meet the NEC requirements.

However there is no NEC reason this service needs ground rods installed at all.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Bob
Take a look at 250.24(A)(4), Starting with , the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted...
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OK I agree.:)

So as drawn it meets and exceeds NEC minimums.

Assuming both the water line and the building steel meet the requirements of 250.52(A)(1) and (2) there is no need for the ground rods.
 
lol...What if the Water Pipe coming in was plastic and the interior piping was copper. And the steel was for the roof system and not actually structual steel in contact with the earth....

AS previously stated, the 2005 NEC allows a busbar to be installed which would allow connections from all GEC and GE to terminate with single conductor going to the bar IWIRE is referencing.

http://www.theelectricalguru.com/images/250.64c3.jpg
 
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The beauty of this and other sites like this is the amount of "eyes" watching what is written. It is almost a given that a correction will be had fairly soon after some comments. As an instructor, this is the place to fine tune some details so as not to make too many mistakes in the class. ;)
 
radiopet said:
lol...What if the Water Pipe coming in was plastic and the interior piping was copper. And the steel was for the roof system and not actually structual steel in contact with the earth....
Click to expand...

Than he would not have called the conductor running to them a GEC would he? :cool:

By the way, who said the steel must be in contact with the earth?
 
Please defind the mistakes Pierre?

I mean......define where it could be driven to it's mistakes...makes for a great lesson plan as we assume ALOT on a picture with no explanation of IF the steel is structual steel or if just bonding because of a likely to become entergized thing...same with water lines in the example picture.

Just always need MORE information that posted sometimes.
 
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(2) Metal Frame of the Building or Structure The metal frame of the building or
structure, where any of the following methods are used to make an earth connection:
(1) 3.0 m (10 ft) or more of a single structural metal member in direct contact with
the earth or encased in concrete that is in direct contact with the earth
(2) The structural metal frame is bonded to one or more of the grounding electrodes
as defined in 250.52(A)(1), (A)(3), or (A)(4)
(3) The structural metal frame is bonded to one or more of the grounding electrodes
as defined in 250.52(A)(5) or (A)(6) that comply with 250.56, or
(4) Other approved means of establishing a connection to earth.

Sorry Bob......was only posting portions to try and find out more about this steel to aid...I will refrain from assistance....carry on...most certainly it would still be EARTHED if connected to the other parts of the system......
 
radiopet said:
Sorry Bob......was only posting portions to try and find out more about this steel to aid...I will refrain from assistance....
Click to expand...

All I am pointing out is that there are other ways for building steel to be connected to earth other than direct contact with the earth.

I have never seen the metal structure intentionally in direct contact with the earth.

The most common way I see is that the steel frame of the building is directly bolted to a concrete encased electrode(s).
 
iwire said:
Than he would not have called the conductor running to them a GEC would he? :cool:
Click to expand...

lol..He could have been lost in the terminology fella.....always possible when dealing with grounding and bonding...case in point...EGC...why not Equipment Bonding Conductor........alas........you got it all straightened out.
 
I have never seen the metal structure intentionally in direct contact with the earth.
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And that is why the steel should not be called a grounding electrode, but CMP 5 does not agree. It really is a GEC and not an electrode as it does not have direct contact with the earth in most cases.
Don
 
Paul,
lol..He could have been lost in the terminology fella.....always possible when dealing with grounding and bonding...case in point...EGC...why not Equipment Bonding Conductor........alas........you got it all straightened out.
Click to expand...
CMP 5 didn't like that idea when that proposal was made for the 2002 code.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
And that is why the steel should not be called a grounding electrode, but CMP 5 does not agree. It really is a GEC and not an electrode as it does not have direct contact with the earth in most cases.
Don
Click to expand...

Don I have to agree with you. :smile:
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Paul,

CMP 5 didn't like that idea when that proposal was made for the 2002 code.
Don
Click to expand...

Yeah..I know I was over at the digest thing reading the ROC's...it made it back again in 2008 proposals and shot down again it seems.
 
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