6 throws of the hand.

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chanute

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electrician put a 12 cir. rain tight breaker panel below the meter socket the line wires were hooked to the main lug inside the panel, no main breaker.3 two pole breakers were installed,sub feeding panels in the house.my question is,it has the capability of having more than 6 throws of the hand if you added the breakers, is this practice in violation of the nec?
 
"has the capability of having more than 6 throws of the hand if you added the breakers"

The code only sees the here and now. Thus the installation is compliant.

Any kind of install can be turned into a violation filled mess if the hack tries hard enough ;)
 
Welcome to the forum.:)

I agree with what the others have posted.

If the panel is listed for use as service equipment (and has been installed in accordance with its installation instructions)and only has 3 breakers then it meets the requirements of 230.71.

Chris
 
As an inspector, the best you can do is to remind them that if they change their mind later, it could be a lot more cost than having done it up front.

But, I agree, no violation.
 
cowboyjwc said:
As an inspector, the best you can do is to remind them that if they change their mind later, it could be a lot more cost than having done it up front.

But, I agree, no violation.
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It wouldn't cost too much more to change it later and add more circuits.
Remove feed off of main lugs. Install breaker and hold down kit(label as service disconnect). Add more circuits. If tandems, you could have 20 circuits in this panel.
 
If somebody attempted to put more than six switches in that panel in the future, the inspector would fail that work. To fail it now would be to say, "I have to fail that bedroom receptacle that is on a wall shared with the kitchen because an electrician could fish a wire up from there and feed a counter top receptacle."
 
chanute said:
electrician put a 12 cir. rain tight breaker panel below the meter socket the line wires were hooked to the main lug inside the panel, no main breaker.3 two pole breakers were installed,sub feeding panels in the house.my question is,it has the capability of having more than 6 throws of the hand if you added the breakers, is this practice in violation of the nec?
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As said you cannot predict the future. But you have 3 2 pole breakers installed, that's 6 circ. or 3 throws. Now as 230.71 B reads you could still install 6 sp breakers as long as they were tied together. Ether tying two together so to make one throw per set or a master tie for all 6 which would not put you over the 6 throw rule.
 
It is legal but is risky. A hack will never know or care if the total goes higher in amps than it is wired to carry. There are plenty of inspectors that will wrongfully tag it.
 
Chanute,
Your profile didn't give any indication of your location, so always keep in mind there may be local ordinances more stringent than the NEC.
As an example, the State of Tennessee regulations require a main breaker on residential services 225 amps or less
 
I can shut off a full 42 space panel with six throws of the hand..just use your edge of the hand like a karate chop on several breakers at a time. :grin:

Despite that idea, I have still not encountered too many installs where a little creative thinking would mean more than six throws to shut off all the power.

The reality is I feel that the six-throw rule is unnecessary.
 
mxslick said:
I can shut off a full 42 space panel with six throws of the hand..just use your edge of the hand like a karate chop on several breakers at a time. :grin:

Despite that idea, I have still not encountered too many installs where a little creative thinking would mean more than six throws to shut off all the power.

The reality is I feel that the six-throw rule is unnecessary.
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They felt a need to keep it at some value. I could easily throw 40 singles off in less than 5 seconds
no idea how they arrived at 6
 
Speedskater said:
Maybe it was 6 back in the old fuse days and the number stuck.
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Now that makes sense and would explain where it came from....and since some really old panels ahd open knife switches, makes even more sense.

But I do feel it's time for that rule to go. Perhaps a good replacement would be a time limit on how long it would take to open all the OCPD's.
 
mxslick said:
Now that makes sense and would explain where it came from....and since some really old panels ahd open knife switches, makes even more sense.

But I do feel it's time for that rule to go. Perhaps a good replacement would be a time limit on how long it would take to open all the OCPD's.
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Yes and that would include things like location of panel. If outside far from a door would take far longer than one in a hall for the resident. 6 is just a very costly number for things like small strip plaza or wearhouses that need 10 or 12. I understand a fire departments needs to be fast but an extra 30 seconds should not be costing us thousands for a fire that most likely will never hapen. I am not saying allow 30 or 50 but the number is too low
 
mxslick said:
Now that makes sense and would explain where it came from....and since some really old panels ahd open knife switches, makes even more sense.

But I do feel it's time for that rule to go. Perhaps a good replacement would be a time limit on how long it would take to open all the OCPD's.
Click to expand...

It sure is nice when you have to split up a service or even put a new service in a new commercial application (ex. if your service is 1000A or more, and using the 6 disconnect rule, you would not need to have a GFPE breaker/switch)

Nice in malls, or a building with a health care facility.
 
I'm not so sure it is quite as cut and dried as some make it out to be ..
from the 2009 marking guide for panelboards .

A panelboard with the neutral insulated from the enclosure may be marked ?Suitable for use as
service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are provided? when the
following conditions are met:

A. There must be at least one combination of switching units that can be mounted to
occupy all available space for switching units; and, whether by using handle ties or
similar devices, not more than six main disconnects will result (including factory-installed
disconnects)..............
Click to expand...

there is more and it can be found here..
http://www.ulenvironment.com/global...newsletters/PanelboardsMG_March2006_Final.pdf
 
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