600 AMPS ADJUSTABLE TRIP ECB-NEMA 4X ENCLOSURE

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RLMJR

Member
Location
British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia)
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I am looking for a 600 amps 600v rated breaker , with adjustable trip (e.g. 200, 250, 400 ,500, 600 ) Amps selectable trip setting , as well as the NEMA 4X- Stainless Steel Enclosure that will match for this type of breaker, does any one has a part number of this type of ECB either from Square D, Eaton, GE or other manufacturer.


Thank you in advance.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I am looking for a 600 amps 600v rated breaker , with adjustable trip (e.g. 200, 250, 400 ,500, 600 ) Amps selectable trip setting , as well as the NEMA 4X- Stainless Steel Enclosure that will match for this type of breaker, does any one has a part number of this type of ECB either from Square D, Eaton, GE or other manufacturer.


Thank you in advance.
Your best bet is to call your local supply houses. People can give you all kinds of part numbers but these kind of circuit breakers are in short supply. you might have to just take what you can get and they can tell you what's available.

You might also give serious consideration to buying the circuit breaker by itself and putting it in a disconnect enclosure.

We are getting delivery dates as far as 6 months out. After I posted I checked your profile and it says Diego Garcia. I don't know what kind of electrical supply houses are there.

I will give you a big hint if you are a somehow associated with the military. You can get some kind of a priority number if your part is being used for a military project that will put you at the front of the line. You have to get it from the procurement people though. I'm not sure exactly how it works and it takes a couple days, but it does work.

Is there some reason it has to be an electronic trip circuit breaker? Kind of assuming that's what you mean by ECB.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
I am looking for a 600 amps 600v rated breaker , with adjustable trip (e.g. 200, 250, 400 ,500, 600 ) Amps selectable trip setting , as well as the NEMA 4X- Stainless Steel Enclosure that will match for this type of breaker, does any one has a part number of this type of ECB either from Square D, Eaton, GE or other manufacturer.


Thank you in advance.

Assuming molded case because of price.

This is pretty open ended so did you get lost in the dizzying list of options or you just can’t “find” these? There is a good reason for it. These are always field/shop made. Local panel shops make them pretty cheaply.

First mistake: GE does not exist. They’re gone or any product labeled that soon will be. It is just a brand name now. GE Capital, the investment company, almost bankrupted themselves in derivatives. ABB bought the lot then immediately sold the power distribution portion to Hitachi to finance it. They also unloaded their own power distribution that was mostly the leftovers from Westinghouse. Any “GE” product that competes with ABB either is or will be discontinued. Plus GE Wavepros were horrendous. So I’d avoid “GE” breakers.

Second mistake. Be careful with terminology. UL does not make it easy and there is a complex set of rules in the background. Even if you have engineering support unless you go to switchgear breakers where you use a protection relay. “Adjustable trip” generally means a motor protection breaker where only the instantaneous trip can be adjusted, not the long term setting.

So here is the UL “gotcha”. UL requires molded case breakers meet the UL A, B, or C curves. The thermal curves are all identical and very wide ranges. The magnetic trips go up to A=5x, B=10x, C=20x. So simple math here if we want adjustable thermal range, it can’t have a 20x magnetic trip! So they are 6-10 for a reason. If you look at the trip curves it’s obvious you can have an “adjustable” breaker but the adjustment can be no more than a 2.5:1 range. So if you are disappointed with the extremely limited adjustment it’s not the manufacturers fault, it’s UL limitations.

Now as for trip unit types, the cost of the trip unit scales with size for thermal-magnetic and is relatively fixed cost for electronic. The magic number is 800 A. Below 800 A, the electronic trip unit is more expensive. So you can find mechanical ones up to 1600 A but they are rare and you can find 400 and 600 A frame electronics but they are rare because price dictates which way most customers go. This is less of a “hard” barrier. ABB SACE XT and Eaton XT breakers go down to 400 A frames as electronic trip units but the breaker cost is quite high.

If you want protection relays at that point you can buy any breaker that supports shunt tripping or even a switch only version and use external CTs and a protection relay such as an SEL 751. This gives you infinite adjustment and programming but at a high price This used to be how things were always done at 400-600 A and above. Molded case breakers and integral trip units have slowly grown ever larger.

At this point break out the catalog. Since you know what is behind the scenes breakers are almost interchangeable. Using Benshaw as an example, because the catalog is much easier to browse:


See page 18 for the rotary handles or the next page for cable operators. Then you just need to buy a box from say Saginaw and you are good to go.


There are 3 construction options. The easiest (least tricky to build) is buy a cable operator. It’s expensive but the breaker can go anywhere and you have a nice highly reliable handle mechanism without the hassle of a through-door rod. Enclosure can be purchased with premade slot and holes for the handle. But it’s not cheap.

Second option is buy a swing out subpanel, Mount breaker to the back of it or with standoffs so the handle just pokes through. This requires breaking the NEMA 4X seal to operate the breaker.

Third option is a rotary through door handle. Most technically challenging to build it properly but it’s the cheapest so you see a lot of these.

Saginaw supplies boxes for all 3. If you use a local panel shop often they will just fabricate the box too (profit on box labor).

The above web sites give you LIST prices. Call or get in touch with local vendors for actual prices.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
You won't find that already made. Enclosed circuit breakers in that size range need ventilation or a HUGE amount of air space / exposed surface area to dissipate heat. You can get enclosed CBs in NEMA 3R, but not in a sealed NEMA 4X enclosure from the factories, they are too rare, expensive and large for them to catalog them. They might MAKE one for you if you have enough time, which right now with the lead times on SS enclosures, might be 2-3 months.

You can also buy a breaker with an ETU (electronic Trip Unit) and buy a NEMA 4X SS enclosure for it (again, if you can find one), but the enclosure volume will need to be determined by the breaker mfr. For a 600A sealed enclosed breaker, I'm going to predict something like 60 x 36 x 20, which in SS is going to cost you more than a small CMU building that is out of the washdown / corrosive area.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
You won't find that already made. Enclosed circuit breakers in that size range need ventilation or a HUGE amount of air space / exposed surface area to dissipate heat. You can get enclosed CBs in NEMA 3R, but not in a sealed NEMA 4X enclosure from the factories, they are too rare, expensive and large for them to catalog them. They might MAKE one for you if you have enough time, which right now with the lead times on SS enclosures, might be 2-3 months.

You can also buy a breaker with an ETU (electronic Trip Unit) and buy a NEMA 4X SS enclosure for it (again, if you can find one), but the enclosure volume will need to be determined by the breaker mfr. For a 600A sealed enclosed breaker, I'm going to predict something like 60 x 36 x 20, which in SS is going to cost you more than a small CMU building that is out of the washdown / corrosive area.

First off might want to get new procurement people. This took 2 minutes to find.

Yes it’s expensive. It’s SS.

As far as power dissipation on a 600 A MCCB it depends on the resistance but let’s just say 400 microohms which is very high. Using 89% then I^2-R is 480x480x1.732x0.0004 = 160 W. This is pretty worst case. So assuming you paint it white indoors need 48x36x16 for heat loss. If you call tech support they can probably give a much more realistic number that will greatly reduce enclosure size.


In stock, probably in the Nashville warehouse. Often if it’s not in stock just call. They will have something similar.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Do electronic trip units even produce all that much heat? There are no thermal units to create the heat so you would think it wouldn't be all that much heat. Maybe that's why he's specing an electronic circuit breaker.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Do electronic trip units even produce all that much heat? There are no thermal units to create the heat so you would think it wouldn't be all that much heat. Maybe that's why he's specing an electronic circuit breaker.

Many operate off the CT itself so they are very low power, a few Watts at most. Probably one of the heaviest power consumers is a protection relay but even those are 20-30 W at most. It is effectively a small computer.

The issue though is below the size range where insulated case starts (800 A) as I point out, there are a few but many manufacturers don’t even offer it. For years the GE Soectra RMS was unique because you could buy a 400 and 600 A frame version.

Either way all t dies is reduce the enclosure size for air cooling.
 

RLMJR

Member
Location
British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia)
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Assuming molded case because of price.

This is pretty open ended so did you get lost in the dizzying list of options or you just can’t “find” these? There is a good reason for it. These are always field/shop made. Local panel shops make them pretty cheaply.

First mistake: GE does not exist. They’re gone or any product labeled that soon will be. It is just a brand name now. GE Capital, the investment company, almost bankrupted themselves in derivatives. ABB bought the lot then immediately sold the power distribution portion to Hitachi to finance it. They also unloaded their own power distribution that was mostly the leftovers from Westinghouse. Any “GE” product that competes with ABB either is or will be discontinued. Plus GE Wavepros were horrendous. So I’d avoid “GE” breakers.

Second mistake. Be careful with terminology. UL does not make it easy and there is a complex set of rules in the background. Even if you have engineering support unless you go to switchgear breakers where you use a protection relay. “Adjustable trip” generally means a motor protection breaker where only the instantaneous trip can be adjusted, not the long term setting.

So here is the UL “gotcha”. UL requires molded case breakers meet the UL A, B, or C curves. The thermal curves are all identical and very wide ranges. The magnetic trips go up to A=5x, B=10x, C=20x. So simple math here if we want adjustable thermal range, it can’t have a 20x magnetic trip! So they are 6-10 for a reason. If you look at the trip curves it’s obvious you can have an “adjustable” breaker but the adjustment can be no more than a 2.5:1 range. So if you are disappointed with the extremely limited adjustment it’s not the manufacturers fault, it’s UL limitations.

Now as for trip unit types, the cost of the trip unit scales with size for thermal-magnetic and is relatively fixed cost for electronic. The magic number is 800 A. Below 800 A, the electronic trip unit is more expensive. So you can find mechanical ones up to 1600 A but they are rare and you can find 400 and 600 A frame electronics but they are rare because price dictates which way most customers go. This is less of a “hard” barrier. ABB SACE XT and Eaton XT breakers go down to 400 A frames as electronic trip units but the breaker cost is quite high.

If you want protection relays at that point you can buy any breaker that supports shunt tripping or even a switch only version and use external CTs and a protection relay such as an SEL 751. This gives you infinite adjustment and programming but at a high price This used to be how things were always done at 400-600 A and above. Molded case breakers and integral trip units have slowly grown ever larger.

At this point break out the catalog. Since you know what is behind the scenes breakers are almost interchangeable. Using Benshaw as an example, because the catalog is much easier to browse:


See page 18 for the rotary handles or the next page for cable operators. Then you just need to buy a box from say Saginaw and you are good to go.


There are 3 construction options. The easiest (least tricky to build) is buy a cable operator. It’s expensive but the breaker can go anywhere and you have a nice highly reliable handle mechanism without the hassle of a through-door rod. Enclosure can be purchased with premade slot and holes for the handle. But it’s not cheap.

Second option is buy a swing out subpanel, Mount breaker to the back of it or with standoffs so the handle just pokes through. This requires breaking the NEMA 4X seal to operate the breaker.

Third option is a rotary through door handle. Most technically challenging to build it properly but it’s the cheapest so you see a lot of these.

Saginaw supplies boxes for all 3. If you use a local panel shop often they will just fabricate the box too (profit on box labor).

The above web sites give you LIST prices. Call or get in touch with local vendors for actual prices.
Actually it is the design that calls for a selectable trip cb , maybe because the existing load of the transformer is 250+ amps only and planning to set the CB to 400 amps trip set with this current load and add future load then set it to max 600 amps. But the cables is dsigned 2 sets of 500 mcm. Note ampacity of 500 mcm doubled is around 800 but applied derating due to it is in a single conduit it falls around only to 600 therefore it match the 600 A breaker. Correct me if im wrong. Thank you
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Actually it is the design that calls for a selectable trip cb , maybe because the existing load of the transformer is 250+ amps only and planning to set the CB to 400 amps trip set with this current load and add future load then set it to max 600 amps. But the cables is dsigned 2 sets of 500 mcm. Note ampacity of 500 mcm doubled is around 800 but applied derating due to it is in a single conduit it falls around only to 600 therefore it match the 600 A breaker. Correct me if im wrong. Thank you
Actually it is the design that calls for a selectable trip cb , maybe because the existing load of the transformer is 250+ amps only and planning to set the CB to 400 amps trip set with this current load and add future load then set it to max 600 amps. But the cables is dsigned 2 sets of 500 mcm. Note ampacity of 500 mcm doubled is around 800 but applied derating due to it is in a single conduit it falls around only to 600 therefore it match the 600 A breaker. Correct me if im wrong. Thank you
You can derate for more than three current carrying conductors starting with the 90° c column for THHN. So it would be 80% of whatever the 90° c rating is for THHN, unless you have to also derate for ambient temperature.
 

RLMJR

Member
Location
British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia)
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
You can derate for more than three current carrying conductors starting with the 90° c column for THHN. So it would be 80% of whatever the 90° c rating is for THHN, unless you have to also derate for ambient temperature.
Yes per NEC tabel 310.15, 500mcm- thhn ampacity = 430A , 2sets of it will give you 860 , then by using table 310.15 (B)(3)(a) since it falls to 7-9 current carrying conductors therefor use 70% only of the ampacity not 80%. Note the secondary is Y connected 4 wires.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Yes per NEC tabel 310.15, 500mcm- thhn ampacity = 430A , 2sets of it will give you 860 , then by using table 310.15 (B)(3)(a) since it falls to 7-9 current carrying conductors therefor use 70% only of the ampacity not 80%. Note the secondary is Y connected 4 wires.
Usually the neutral conductors are not counted as current carrying unless there is a lot of line to neutral loads.
 

RLMJR

Member
Location
British Indian Ocean Territory (Diego Garcia)
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Usually the neutral conductors are not counted as current carrying unless there is a lot of line to neutral loads.
@petersona, actually there are some neutral load (high bay lamp 277V) but this is only minor compare to almost 90 % of the to loads w/c is motor w/c is considered as linear load, but im confused with this statement from NEC 2017 article 310.15 (B)(5)(c)-On a 4-wire, 3-phase wye circuit where the major portion of the load consists of nonlinear loads, harmonic currents are present in the neutral conductor; the neutral conductor shall therefore be considered a current-carrying conductor. QUESTION: what if 40 to 50 percent of my motor loads is using VFD , and there are PC' load SCADA PLC IT server - com load ,in addition to 277 line to neutral load, would i count the neutral as current carrying or not?

Thank you in advance for the answer.
 
I am looking for a 600 amps 600v rated breaker , with adjustable trip (e.g. 200, 250, 400 ,500, 600 ) Amps selectable trip setting , as well as the NEMA 4X- Stainless Steel Enclosure that will match for this type of breaker, does any one has a part number of this type of ECB either from Square D, Eaton, GE or other manufacturer.


Thank you in advance.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
@petersona, actually there are some neutral load (high bay lamp 277V) but this is only minor compare to almost 90 % of the to loads w/c is motor w/c is considered as linear load, but im confused with this statement from NEC 2017 article 310.15 (B)(5)(c)-On a 4-wire, 3-phase wye circuit where the major portion of the load consists of nonlinear loads, harmonic currents are present in the neutral conductor; the neutral conductor shall therefore be considered a current-carrying conductor. QUESTION: what if 40 to 50 percent of my motor loads is using VFD , and there are PC' load SCADA PLC IT server - com load ,in addition to 277 line to neutral load, would i count the neutral as current carrying or not?

Thank you in advance for the answer.
You won't get much in the way of any neutral loads on the input to the VFDs.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
You won't get much in the way of any neutral loads on the input to the VFDs.

Is that because there is no neutral connection on a three phase rectifier bridge or an assumption?

If the VFD grounding to the motor frame is poor you get a common mode current flowing back through the transformer neutral.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Is that because there is no neutral connection on a three phase rectifier bridge or an assumption?

If the VFD grounding to the motor frame is poor you get a common mode current flowing back through the transformer neutral.
since there is no neutral connection to the vfd whatever neutral current there is would be at the transformer.

you can get small amounts of leakage current from the movs and some common mode current but it is on the EGC at the VFD and not the neutral.
 
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