600Vdc PV Disconnect

solarken

NABCEP PVIP
Location
Hudson, OH, USA
Occupation
Solar Design and Installation Professional
With SqD discontinuing the HU361RB safety switch, what are you using for ground mount PV disconnects mounted outside at the array to avoid rapid shutdown requirements when the inverter is in the home? I know there is a windowed version VHU from SqD but it costs is too high. The Siemens HNF361 is only rated for 250vdc. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Are you saying you have a ground mounted PV array and DC disconnect that feeds an inverter inside a house?
 

solarken

NABCEP PVIP
Location
Hudson, OH, USA
Occupation
Solar Design and Installation Professional
Are you saying you have a ground mounted PV array and DC disconnect that feeds an inverter inside a house?
Yes, Ground mount PV, DC disconnect at array, trench/conduit to house, penetration into basement where inverter is located.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes, Ground mount PV, DC disconnect at array, trench/conduit to house, penetration into basement where inverter is located.
Why? If the inverter were outside (and they are all designed to tolerate outdoor ambient conditions), rapid shutdown would not be an issue.
 

solarken

NABCEP PVIP
Location
Hudson, OH, USA
Occupation
Solar Design and Installation Professional
Why? If the inverter were outside (and they are all designed to tolerate outdoor ambient conditions), rapid shutdown would not be an issue.
For residential, I generally don't install inverters outdoors here in Ohio when the home has a basement or a garage. We get minus 0F temps in winter and 95F temps in summer, and I have replaced enough inverters from competitor's customer systems to reinforce that it is a good decision for this area. Without a disconnect, the DC conductors entering the home become controlled conductors for Rapid shutdown. I also usually install consumption monitoring with all systems and it is not ideal to run CT leads and ethernet to an inverter out in the yard.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Without a disconnect, the DC conductors entering the home become controlled conductors for Rapid shutdown.
Unless you have an interesting local amendment to 690.13 I'm not seeing how having a manual DC disconnect in the circuit changes what is a controlled conductor. How does this work?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Unless you have an interesting local amendment to 690.13 I'm not seeing how having a manual DC disconnect in the circuit changes what is a controlled conductor. How does this work?
Verbiage aside, if you have 'raw' PV DC conductors coming into a building and you put a disconnect on the outside of the building that denenergizes the conductors in and/or on the building, that's a way to satisfy rapid shutdown requirements.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Verbiage aside, if you have 'raw' PV DC conductors coming into a building and you put a disconnect on the outside of the building that denenergizes the conductors in and/or on the building, that's a way to satisfy rapid shutdown requirements.
A DC disconnect does not satisfy rapid shutdown requirements for an array on a rooftop; are the rules different for a system like this? On a rooftop, voltages within the array have to get down to 80V within a few seconds. Maybe it's not actually rapid shutdown you are describing?
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
A DC disconnect does not satisfy rapid shutdown requirements for an array on a rooftop; are the rules different for a system like this? On a rooftop, voltages within the array have to get down to 80V within a few seconds. Maybe it's not actually rapid shutdown you are describing?
Yes, a groundmount is different because 690.12 only applies to conductors in or on buildings. So a DC disconnect that de-energizes the DC conductors that are in or on the building can meet rapid shutdown requirements. The rules aren't different, but the situation is.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Yes, a groundmount is different because 690.12 only applies to conductors in or on buildings. So a DC disconnect that de-energizes the DC conductors that are in or on the building can meet rapid shutdown requirements. The rules aren't different, but the situation is.
The dc disconnect becomes the initiator for RSD then if mounted off the building. The location may be an issue since it's up to AHJs which could be touchy if they want it mounted somewhere inconvenient for the installation.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes, a groundmount is different because 690.12 only applies to conductors in or on buildings. So a DC disconnect that de-energizes the DC conductors that are in or on the building can meet rapid shutdown requirements. The rules aren't different, but the situation is.
So there is no requirement to drop the voltage between modules in the array?
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
So there is no requirement to drop the voltage between modules in the array?
I'm a bit surprised that 690.12 main paragraph and 690.12(A) aren't a bit clearer on this point. It is certainly possible to read them as saying that if the PV system circuit is "on or in" a building, then rapid shutdown applies to the entire circuit and the array.

On the other hand, given the stated reason of firefighter safety for operating on the building, and given that a service disconnect only removes power from downstream conductors and not from the service conductors themselves, it makes perfect sense for the requirement to apply only to conductors on or in the building, and not to apply to the exterior conductors and the ground mount array.

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I'm a bit surprised that 690.12 main paragraph and 690.12(A) aren't a bit clearer on this point. It is certainly possible to read them as saying that if the PV system circuit is "on or in" a building, then rapid shutdown applies to the entire circuit and the array.

On the other hand, given the stated reason of firefighter safety for operating on the building, and given that a service disconnect only removes power from downstream conductors and not from the service conductors themselves, it makes perfect sense for the requirement to apply only to conductors on or in the building, and not to apply to the exterior conductors and the ground mount array.

Cheers, Wayne
I agree that since the array is not on a building, the DC voltages present within a ground mounted PV array do not present a dangerous situation for firefighters, but does the NEC say that?

What makes sense and what the NEC says are sometimes at odds, in case you haven't noticed. :D
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
I'm a bit surprised that 690.12 main paragraph and 690.12(A) aren't a bit clearer on this point. It is certainly possible to read them as saying that if the PV system circuit is "on or in" a building, then rapid shutdown applies to the entire circuit and the array.

On the other hand, given the stated reason of firefighter safety for operating on the building, and given that a service disconnect only removes power from downstream conductors and not from the service conductors themselves, it makes perfect sense for the requirement to apply only to conductors on or in the building, and not to apply to the exterior conductors and the ground mount array.

Cheers, Wayne
I agree that since the array is not on a building, the DC voltages present within a ground mounted PV array do not present a dangerous situation for firefighters, but does the NEC say that?

What makes sense and what the NEC says are sometimes at odds, in case you haven't noticed. :D

Look at the exceptions in the 2023 NEC. I agree with Wayne it could be clearer, but reading it to require RSD at the array of groundmount strikes me as pretty incorrect.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Look at the exceptions in the 2023 NEC. I agree with Wayne it could be clearer, but reading it to require RSD at the array of groundmount strikes me as pretty incorrect.
For the record, I did not read it either way; in fact, I did not read it at all. :D
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
690.12 is pretty specific.
PV system circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for firefighters in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).
It identifies only the circuits installed on or in buildings as requiring RSD. Not the whole PV system, just the circuits on or in a building. If a ground mount system has a circuit that enters a building then only the PV circuits on or in the building are controlled for the purpose of 690.12. Even then you get a 1m allowance so if the circuit penetrates a building and goes right into an inverter with less than a 1m run the DC circuit does not require RSD.
 
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