680.25(B) - Swimming Pool Panelboards

[JPerez/Paradise]

As it relates to installing a remote panel board for a swimming pool does it require ground rods?? We have an inspector that says that it requires a set of ground rods to the panel board. This panel board is mounted on a post and is completely isolated from everything around. It is not mounted to a shed or any other type of building or structure. We would like to determine if this municipality is citing the code properly.
The panel board is fed by 1" pvc with individual conductors and an insulated equipment grounding conductor with its own over current protection in the main panel. Please advise. Thanks Jeff

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Imo, the inspector is correct as the panel will fall under a separate structure (see 250.32(B))

 

[JPerez/Paradise]

Imo, the inspector is correct as the panel will fall under a separate structure (see 250.32(B))

Hello Dennis, Ok so you agree that a totally isolated panel board is going to be considered as a separate structure?? Ok so my issue with this is that we install pools on a regular basis in 2 states and this is the first time anyone has brought this up to install ground rods at the pool panel. So all of the other inspectors that have inspected these pools are incorrect. Now you may understand why we are questioning this code violation. Please advise. Thanks, Jeff

 

[Little Bill]

It has nothing to do with it being a "pool panel". It has to do with the fact that its not attached to the dwelling/building. It is on a post, and that's considered a structure and according to the definition of structure, the post falls under that. It's the fact that it is a separate structure that calls for it's own grounding system.
I don't like the rule and think its silly, but it is the code.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This issue has come up many time. If you had a disconnect that fed one piece of equipment then I would not consider a ground rod necessary but when you have a panelboard and are feeding multiple circuits then 2 ground rods would be needed.

Now why have other inspectors let it go-- probably because they have not thought about it or they disagree with me. I think the nec clarified the definition of structure in the 2017 NEC just a bit.

Structure. That which is built or constructed, other than equipment.

I believe what they were getting at here is if you had a post in the ground to use for a disconnect for a septic pump, a/c unit, etc then no ground rod is needed.

Ground rods , IMO, are not very effective but if it can help a bit to divert surges etc then it is worth it to protect the equipment.

 

[Mystic Pools]

I too like Jeff, install pools in 2 states and not once has an inspector called for ground rods.

We set a sub-panel (Jandy) to feed multiple devices. We construct a panel board generally 4'x4' to accommodate for items such as transformers, automatic-fill boards, sometimes a pool light deck box, etc..

Even if the equipment is placed adjacent to the customer's house or garage, etc.. we always set a separate panel board. Mounting on the buildings, I feel, makes an issue if the building is to be painted, re-sided-whatever.

 

[infinity]

I've always been of the opinion that calling a post in the ground a structure because it is holding up something is a weak argument at best.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've always been of the opinion that calling a post in the ground a structure because it is holding up something is a weak argument at best.

Yes, however, there is a panel. So what is the difference between a remote panel on a shed or a remote panel on a post? It is really the same. It is my opinion that if there is a remote panel then an electrode(s) is necessary

 

[infinity]

Yes, however, there is a panel. So what is the difference between a remote panel on a shed or a remote panel on a post? It is really the same. It is my opinion that if there is a remote panel then an electrode(s) is necessary

Fundamentally I agree with you but the problem is to get to the requirement for a GES you have to have a structure. It would be better if it just stated all remote panels, even on a post, need a GES. If the panel was mounted to a tree no GES would be required. Doesn't make much sense.

In this photo if one considers the two pieces of strut banged into the earth to be a structure then this is a violation because a single structure cannot have two branch circuits run to.

 

[trentonmakes]

I too like Jeff, install pools in 2 states and not once has an inspector called for ground rods.

We set a sub-panel (Jandy) to feed multiple devices. We construct a panel board generally 4'x4' to accommodate for items such as transformers, automatic-fill boards, sometimes a pool light deck box, etc..

Even if the equipment is placed adjacent to the customer's house or garage, etc.. we always set a separate panel board. Mounting on the buildings, I feel, makes an issue if the building is to be painted, re-sided-whatever.

We do the same. Recently did one in OP's area with no issues. Never added ground rounds for any pool panels

Intermatics we put on a post with a switch and outlet. Jandys we put on a panel board, [ more suited to definition of structure], 2 posts and 3-2x12 boards.



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[Dennis Alwon]

Fundamentally I agree with you but the problem is to get to the requirement for a GES you have to have a structure. It would be better if it just stated all remote panels, even on a post, need a GES. If the panel was mounted to a tree no GES would be required. Doesn't make much sense.

In this photo if one considers the two pieces of strut banged into the earth to be a structure then this is a violation because a single structure cannot have two branch circuits run to.

View attachment 18033

I get it but that is not what I was talking about. You don't have a panel so no electrodes are needed.

 

[infinity]

I get it but that is not what I was talking about. You don't have a panel so no electrodes are needed.

But do you agree that you need the panel attached to a separate structure first to require the GES?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But do you agree that you need the panel attached to a separate structure first to require the GES?

Imo, the panel must be attached to something- call it a structure or whatever- and therefore needs the electrode(s). A post is a structure. I may write a proposal that states if a panelboard is mounted remotely then it needs electrodes.

 

[infinity]

Imo, the panel must be attached to something- call it a structure or whatever- and therefore needs the electrode(s). A post is a structure. I may write a proposal that states if a panelboard is mounted remotely then it needs electrodes.

That would end the confusion with whether or not it mounted to a structure when on a piece of strut or a post. Also that would include a panel mounted to a tree which does not meet the NEC definition of a structure.

 

[stevenje]

Imo, the panel must be attached to something- call it a structure or whatever- and therefore needs the electrode(s). A post is a structure. I may write a proposal that states if a panelboard is mounted remotely then it needs electrodes.

Would this also apply to Recreational Vehicle Site Supply Equipment as described in 551.2 Definitions?