680.25 Intent

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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
What is the intent of 680.25? What is the importance of having the ALL the feeders on the supply side in a raceway? Considering the Exception, there must not be a true hazard if the main feeder from the service to a remote panelboard is installed as SER, and then a raceway from there to the pool panel. So why is this requirment even needed?
 

jwelectric

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Re: 680.25 Intent

The answer to your question can be found in the last sentence of (B) as outlined below:
680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight, flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building.
Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).
(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
:)
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: 680.25 Intent

That may take the question a step further, but the same question persists. What is the intent and reasoning behind having an insulated equipment grounding conductor?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: 680.25 Intent

I have no fact to offer. But I do perceive a much higher danger from shock, when you are dealing with pools and hot tubs. If any equipment is incorrectly installed, or if any equipment suffers an internal failure, it may well create a shock hazard. But I think a pool (or hot tub) is an especially dangerous environment, because there will be persons immersed within the water, and because the water is a good conductor.

Think of it this way: If you are using a food mixer, and if it has a small short circuit (i.e., one that does not, by itself, trip the breaker), you have at least two chances to live through it: (1) The shock may be so slight that all you feel is a tingle, and you quickly let go, or (2) The shock knocks you down, and your hand is forced (by your falling body) to let go of the mixer. But if you are swimming or soaking, you will have nothing to let go of. Also, a small tingle may be enough to prevent you from swimming back to the edge of a pool, and you can drown, even if the current wasn't enough to harm you by itself.

When you deal with bad things that might happen and look for things to do about them, there are two separate considerations. One is the probability of the failure (or the accident), and the other is the consequences of the failure (or the accident). As an example, and AFCI breaker can never influence the probability that an arc fault may be created by a bed post rubbing against a lamp cord. But the AFCI can eliminate any adverse consequences, by recognizing the arc fault and by tripping the circuit, before it can cause a fire.

In the case of the special (and somewhat strange) pool rules, I think they are intended to reduce the probability of a failure. If the feeder is in a conduit, it becomes far less likely that a person digging up ground for a new garden area might accidentally nick the feeder. I think the exception is there to recognize that people install pools long after houses have been built. If there is an existing sub-panel (i.e., not the main), and if it is presently fed without the benefit of a conduit, and if you wish to use it to power a sub-sub-panel for the pool equipment, it would be unreasonable to require the owner to run a new feeder in conduit to the first sub-panel.

As to the insulated ground conductor, here again I can only guess. But my guess would be along the same lines. When pulling an EGC through the conduit, it is less likely that the copper will suffer damage (i.e., during the pull), if it is insulated. That is not to say that it is dangerous to use bare copper wire. I am merely saying that this reduces the probability of a failure, by however slight an amount, for essentially a nominal additional cost.

[ September 22, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
 

pierre

Senior Member
Re: 680.25 Intent

Bryan
I, like you am not sure if this is really necessary. I believe the reason for insulating the EGC in this location is because chlorine vapor may get in the raceway and degradate the conductor itself.
Very much a safety measure I guess.
 

macmikeman

Senior Member
Re: 680.25 Intent

because chlorine vapor may get in the raceway
Pierre, after having been inside some really slopily kept pool equipment rooms as of late, I vote to edit your statement from may get in the raceway to WILL get in the raceway. I think pools ought to have some sort of inspection recertification renewal program every 5 years or so just like how elevators need to get an annual inspection done.
 
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