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New User
- Location
- Pennsylvania
- Occupation
- Electrician
Sorry if this appears as a rant, but I do have two serious questions here, but let me explain the strange situation I'm in so the questions make sense. It is never a good idea to argue with the AHJ, but that's the situation I find myself in.
(I'm under the NEC 2017) 705.12B(5) Listed plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from electric power sources that are listed and identified as interactive shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications.
I have a backfed breaker (QO215) that is backfed from a small solar array (standard grid interactive with no batteries). Of course this breaker is installed at the opposite end of the QO main panel. The AHJ wants a hold down for this breaker, but the QO hold-down kit is only designed to work in the top of the main panel, not at the bottom of the main panel. I could drill and tap the bottom of the panelboard, but that would be a field modification of the panelboard that I think is considerably less safe than just using the exemption set out by section 705.12B(5) which IMO has no risk at all. My AHJ does not agree that the section 705.12B(5) applies in my situation. The AHJ wants the breaker to be listed for "back feed from main interactive power source and with no additional fastener required".
So my question is two-fold. First to understand the AHJ.
He reads this as "Listed (plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from electric power sources that are listed and identified as interactive shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener" normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications". such that the first word applies to the rest of the whole sentence.
I read it as the breaker is listed as 1-"plug-in-type" and 2-"circuit breaker" which it is, but that is where the use of the first word in 705.12B(5) stops.
If there are others who think the AHJ is reading this correctly, I really want to hear from you. This is my first question, Am I reading this code section correctly?
In order to appease the AHJ, I have attempted to get the listing of the breaker. At first he wanted me to show that the listing included "back feed" and "continuous use", then it was "back feed", "no hold-down", and "use with interactive power systems" because what I gave him was a Q&A from Schneider's web page that said the breakers were suitable for back feed, but then also said a hold down kit was needed for backfed mains (408.36D). The AHJ is claiming that the QO215 is a main. I have obtain the UL listing certification from Schneider. But this is a very short 1-pager that just says what UL standard the breaker was listed under. That UL standard is over 300 pages, cannot be downloaded, and refers to alot more than just a molded circuit breaker. It doesn't say anything about interactive power systems, and while it does have something about backfed breakers needing a hold down kit, it is really about the same thing that 408.36D normally addresses. Do I understand what the 'listing document' is? or is there something else out there that I could get? I'm guessing that what Schneider actually submitted to UL was physical examples of the item and lots of proprietary engineering/manufacturing information that they'd never share with little old me.. So that's the second question, Can one actually get a copy of the UL listing for product and how?
I also provided the AHJ with the 2020 NEC where 705.12 was changed and 705.12(D) now states that any breaker not marked 'line' and 'load' is suitable for back feed. This had no impact on my AHJ.
There is a 3rd question I have too. How do you challenge an AHJ? I've already involved his boss where we read that sentence a dozen times, my customer is livid about the month-long delay so far and wants to go to our city council. I had an another customer who called the mayor 6-weeks ago about the same AHJ.
(I'm under the NEC 2017) 705.12B(5) Listed plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from electric power sources that are listed and identified as interactive shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications.
I have a backfed breaker (QO215) that is backfed from a small solar array (standard grid interactive with no batteries). Of course this breaker is installed at the opposite end of the QO main panel. The AHJ wants a hold down for this breaker, but the QO hold-down kit is only designed to work in the top of the main panel, not at the bottom of the main panel. I could drill and tap the bottom of the panelboard, but that would be a field modification of the panelboard that I think is considerably less safe than just using the exemption set out by section 705.12B(5) which IMO has no risk at all. My AHJ does not agree that the section 705.12B(5) applies in my situation. The AHJ wants the breaker to be listed for "back feed from main interactive power source and with no additional fastener required".
So my question is two-fold. First to understand the AHJ.
He reads this as "Listed (plug-in-type circuit breakers backfed from electric power sources that are listed and identified as interactive shall be permitted to omit the additional fastener" normally required by 408.36(D) for such applications". such that the first word applies to the rest of the whole sentence.
I read it as the breaker is listed as 1-"plug-in-type" and 2-"circuit breaker" which it is, but that is where the use of the first word in 705.12B(5) stops.
If there are others who think the AHJ is reading this correctly, I really want to hear from you. This is my first question, Am I reading this code section correctly?
In order to appease the AHJ, I have attempted to get the listing of the breaker. At first he wanted me to show that the listing included "back feed" and "continuous use", then it was "back feed", "no hold-down", and "use with interactive power systems" because what I gave him was a Q&A from Schneider's web page that said the breakers were suitable for back feed, but then also said a hold down kit was needed for backfed mains (408.36D). The AHJ is claiming that the QO215 is a main. I have obtain the UL listing certification from Schneider. But this is a very short 1-pager that just says what UL standard the breaker was listed under. That UL standard is over 300 pages, cannot be downloaded, and refers to alot more than just a molded circuit breaker. It doesn't say anything about interactive power systems, and while it does have something about backfed breakers needing a hold down kit, it is really about the same thing that 408.36D normally addresses. Do I understand what the 'listing document' is? or is there something else out there that I could get? I'm guessing that what Schneider actually submitted to UL was physical examples of the item and lots of proprietary engineering/manufacturing information that they'd never share with little old me.. So that's the second question, Can one actually get a copy of the UL listing for product and how?
I also provided the AHJ with the 2020 NEC where 705.12 was changed and 705.12(D) now states that any breaker not marked 'line' and 'load' is suitable for back feed. This had no impact on my AHJ.
There is a 3rd question I have too. How do you challenge an AHJ? I've already involved his boss where we read that sentence a dozen times, my customer is livid about the month-long delay so far and wants to go to our city council. I had an another customer who called the mayor 6-weeks ago about the same AHJ.
