80% breaker rating - what is at issue?

Status
Not open for further replies.
W/regards to breaker operation, and for arguments' sake we'll use a 3-pole, 100A, 240VAC breaker that is 80% rated with an 85A load (continuous). What is the expected action that the breaker will take? Trip after 3-hours? Trip after 3+long hours? Keep on running with an 85A load 24/7? Terminal failure/thermal element failure?

For the same breaker that is 100% rated, and it has 100A load (continuous), will it operate indefinitely at the full load and what mechanical, thermal element, lugs, etc. makes it different from the above?

Thanks!!!
 
neither will trip.

the lugs might get warmer on the 80% breaker.

IIRC, 100% breakers are calibrated for a slightly highly ambient temperature.
 
As was mentioned, the difference between an 80% and a 100% device is simply the amount of air flow across the breaker.
Most molded case breakers, and fuses, will carry 133% current for time periods of 15min or more.
 
neither will trip.
Actually the standard tolerance for a circuit breaker is 20%, so in a given batch most of them will never trip at 85%, but a small percentage will. ONLY if the amperage is maintained for a long long time, likely. With thermal or magnetic long time trip breakers it could take a very long time and a drop in amperage, even for a short while (especially for a magnetic trip) can reset the entire action. I believe, but I don't know, that 100% trip breakers have a smaller tolerance and a slightly higher setting.
 
Actually the standard tolerance for a circuit breaker is 20%, so in a given batch most of them will never trip at 85%, but a small percentage will. ONLY if the amperage is maintained for a long long time, likely. With thermal or magnetic long time trip breakers it could take a very long time and a drop in amperage, even for a short while (especially for a magnetic trip) can reset the entire action. I believe, but I don't know, that 100% trip breakers have a smaller tolerance and a slightly higher setting.
None of them will trip solely because it gets to 85%.
 
The standard breaker will not trip below 100% of its rating unless the temperature of the breaker exceeds 40°C. The 80% rule is just to account for the possibility of heat from other breakers in the panel. All listed breakers must carry 100% of their rating at 40°C forever, in an open enclosure with no other devices.
 
The standard breaker will not trip below 100% of its rating unless the temperature of the breaker exceeds 40°C. The 80% rule is just to account for the possibility of heat from other breakers in the panel. All listed breakers must carry 100% of their rating at 40°C forever, in an open enclosure with no other devices.
40C isn't really that hot, 104F...how hot can a breaker get at 80% current?
 
Actually the standard tolerance for a circuit breaker is 20%, so in a given batch most of them will never trip at 85%, but a small percentage will.

It is quite true that breakers have tolerances. That is why the trip curve is a band rather than a thin line.

I believe the tolerance is single ended, so that in free air, in the breaker is in spec, it's long term trip will be somewhere between 100 and 120% of rating.

Jon
 
All breakers are tested and rated at 100% of their current, in free air at a maximum ambient of 40C (104F). The so called "80%" rule has to do with how they are USED. Circuit breakers protect conductors. For continuous loads, conductors must be sized to 125% of the max. load, so that means the conductors are never going to see more than 80% of the conductor rating (80% is the inverse of 125%). Since the CB is there to protect those conductors, it is therefore going to be loaded to more than 80% of its rating continuously. BECAUSE of that, circuit breaker PANELS are designed based on the breakers never seeing more than 80% of their rating continuously, so the fact that they are packed in there side by side and unable to have full air flow across all surfaces to dissipate heat is basically allowed based on that fact, and INDIRECTLY, you end up with breakers IN PANELS only being loaded to 80%.

So what happens if you load a panelboard mounted breaker to 85%? Nothing, if it is not a continuous load, defined as 3 hours or more. If it is longer than 3 hours at 85% of the breaker rating (you have ALSO exceeded the conductor rating by the way), the breaker can possibly over heat and if you are LUCKY, that might cause a "nuisance" trip (nuisance being defined as tripping at a value less than its rating). But I wouldn't count on that because it's more likely you will cause damage to the breaker by heating, melting, or warping the case, which may interfere with it operating correctly.

100% rated breakers are typically only going to be allowed in SEPARATE enclosures or cubicles where there is full air flow around them. There are a few exceptions, such as Sq. D I-Line panels (because the breakers have built-in bus connections that help them dissipate heat, so they were able to list them at 100% in a panelboard). But USING a breaker at 100% also has implications on the conductors that you can use as well. If all elements of the circuit are properly designed however, yes, it will be fin at 100% of its rating indefinitely.
 
...
So what happens if you load a panelboard mounted breaker to 85%? Nothing, if it is not a continuous load, defined as 3 hours or more. If it is longer than 3 hours at 85% of the breaker rating (you have ALSO exceeded the conductor rating by the way), the breaker can possibly over heat and if you are LUCKY, that might cause a "nuisance" trip (nuisance being defined as tripping at a value less than its rating). But I wouldn't count on that because it's more likely you will cause damage to the breaker by heating, melting, or warping the case, which may interfere with it operating correctly. ...
I do not agree with this...the breaker is a thermal device and will open the circuit when the thermal element gets hot enough. That tripping temperature does not change just because you are running a continuous load at more than 80% of the breakers rating. It trips at the same temperature, within its tolerances, no matter what the load is.

The only real issue is the possibility of the breaker tripping below its nameplate rating, but often they will carry a few amps more than their rating forever. The product standard says that they must trip within one hour at 135% of rating, so at 130% of the rating the breaker is within the product standard requirements if it never trips.
 
For continuous loads, conductors must be sized to 125% of the max. load, so that means the conductors are never going to see more than 80% of the conductor rating (80% is the inverse of 125%). Since the CB is there to protect those conductors, it is therefore going to be loaded to more than 80% of its rating continuously. BECAUSE of that, circuit breaker PANELS are designed based on the breakers never seeing more than 80% of their rating continuously
I don't agree with the direction of your causality arrow. The only reason that conductors for a continuous load have to be sized at 125% is because of the limitations of breakers in the thermal environment of a typical panel. The conductors get upsized BECAUSE the breaker has been upsized for the continuous load. If you use a 100% breaker, there's no need to upsize the conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
 
the breaker is a thermal device
So what about breakers that don't have thermal elements, why are they subject to this 80% limitation? Like hydraulic breakers and breakers with electronic trip units. Or do I misunderstand, and their behavior will still be dependent on the ambient temperature?

Cheers, Wayne
 
Iirc, 100% breakers are designed to dissipate at least some heat through the terminals which is why you are often required to use wire with a higher than normal insulation temperature rating.
 
So what about breakers that don't have thermal elements, why are they subject to this 80% limitation? Like hydraulic breakers and breakers with electronic trip units. Or do I misunderstand, and their behavior will still be dependent on the ambient temperature?

Cheers, Wayne
Not sure, maybe just a listing issue and not a real world issue.
 
I don't agree with the direction of your causality arrow. The only reason that conductors for a continuous load have to be sized at 125% is because of the limitations of breakers in the thermal environment of a typical panel. The conductors get upsized BECAUSE the breaker has been upsized for the continuous load. If you use a 100% breaker, there's no need to upsize the conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
That has always been my understanding. How ever the way the requirements are laid out in the NEC doesn't seem to be logical, or indicates something else. Couldn't the NEC just require breakers be derated for cont loads in article 240? Then the conductor sizing would just follow with no other requirements. Instead they require both the conductor and it's OCPD to be derated in 210 for branch circuits and 215 for feeders.
 
Couldn't the NEC just require breakers be derated for cont loads in article 240? Then the conductor sizing would just follow with no other requirements.
Yes, that would be more logical, and it would allow the use of 240.4(B). E.g. for a 48A (continuous EVSE) on #6 NM (55A ampacity) with a 60A breaker.

The only reason I can think of to write the requirements as they are is just to spell out that in the typical case you have to upsize the conductors. Less thinking required.

Cheers, Wayne
 
That has always been my understanding. How ever the way the requirements are laid out in the NEC doesn't seem to be logical, or indicates something else. Couldn't the NEC just require breakers be derated for cont loads in article 240? Then the conductor sizing would just follow with no other requirements. Instead they require both the conductor and it's OCPD to be derated in 210 for branch circuits and 215 for feeders.
In a panel full of breakers and no air flow over individual breakers to help dissipate heat, the attached conductors are going to be a heat sink to some extent, and so is panel bus.
 
It is quite true that breakers have tolerances. That is why the trip curve is a band rather than a thin line.

I believe the tolerance is single ended, so that in free air, in the breaker is in spec, it's long term trip will be somewhere between 100 and 120% of rating.

Jon
I used to overhaul breakers for nuclear submarines. The tolerance of a breaker is + or - 20% unless otherwise stated.
 
Not true. The standard tolerance of a breaker is 20%, period. 100%-20%=80%
As has been stated above, breakers listed to UL489 must carry 133% of rated current.
The tolerances would be based at this point. Look at any breaker TCC, it barely comes near to the 1x part of the plot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top