a/c disconnects
- Thread starter moondog23
- Start date
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stars13bars2
Senior Member
Re: a/c disconnects
If we are talking 110.26(A)(2) My opinion is the wording "required" and "while energized" would eliminate the requirement for this space if there is an upstream switch or breaker to deenergize said equipment.
If we are talking 110.26(A)(2) My opinion is the wording "required" and "while energized" would eliminate the requirement for this space if there is an upstream switch or breaker to deenergize said equipment.
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: a/c disconnects
Yes. The disconnect would require the 30" minimum and the depth of 36" also.
Yes. The disconnect would require the 30" minimum and the depth of 36" also.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: a/c disconnects
I ask as along with the requirement for the 30" x 36" space there is a requirement that the 30" x 36" space extends form floor to the height of the equipment.
The depth of the space is required by 110.26(A)(1)
The width of the space is required by 110.26(A)(2)
Then there is 110.26(A)(3) which requires the space from floor to the height of the equipment.
Now the ceiling has removable panels but the grid is still only 24" wide and there is furniture in that space also.
So what's the deal, this is no joke explain it to me?
Either the work space requirements do not apply to disconnects or every disconnect and the equipment that may need servicing above a suspended ceiling is in violation.
Bob
Based on that I will go remove all the electric equipment with disconnects mounted in the ceiling of the job I just got a final on.
I ask as along with the requirement for the 30" x 36" space there is a requirement that the 30" x 36" space extends form floor to the height of the equipment.
The depth of the space is required by 110.26(A)(1)
The width of the space is required by 110.26(A)(2)
Then there is 110.26(A)(3) which requires the space from floor to the height of the equipment.
Now the ceiling has removable panels but the grid is still only 24" wide and there is furniture in that space also.
So what's the deal, this is no joke explain it to me?
Either the work space requirements do not apply to disconnects or every disconnect and the equipment that may need servicing above a suspended ceiling is in violation.
Bob
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: a/c disconnects
I am too old to go correct all the ones i installed wrong.Change the code
I am too old to go correct all the ones i installed wrong.Change the code
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: a/c disconnects
It seems to me that 404.8(A) Exception No. 2 would modify 110.26 (A), and in instances where equipment is located above a ceiling for example, the requirements change. If you can get the clearance, you probably ought to.
Jim T.
It seems to me that 404.8(A) Exception No. 2 would modify 110.26 (A), and in instances where equipment is located above a ceiling for example, the requirements change. If you can get the clearance, you probably ought to.
Jim T.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: a/c disconnects
Jim you can not use an exception from one section and apply it to another section.
Accessibility is a separate issue from the work space requirements.
[ December 05, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Jim you can not use an exception from one section and apply it to another section.
Article 100
In other words all that exception modifies is the accessibility required by 408.8
Accessibility is a separate issue from the work space requirements.
[ December 05, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: a/c disconnects
quote from iwire
Jim you can not use an exception from one section and apply it to another section.
I am suggesting that 110.26 is a general rule that applies to equipment in general, 404 is a rule that applies to specific types of equipment, namely switches. It changes some of the general requirements applicable to all equipment. Since the disconnect is a switch, I believe the rules in 110 apply except as modified in Article 404.
Similarly, Article 430 modifies the overcurrent requirements in Article 240, and Article 440 modifies parts of Article 430 even further.
Jim T.
quote from iwire
Jim you can not use an exception from one section and apply it to another section.
I am suggesting that 110.26 is a general rule that applies to equipment in general, 404 is a rule that applies to specific types of equipment, namely switches. It changes some of the general requirements applicable to all equipment. Since the disconnect is a switch, I believe the rules in 110 apply except as modified in Article 404.
Similarly, Article 430 modifies the overcurrent requirements in Article 240, and Article 440 modifies parts of Article 430 even further.
Jim T.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: a/c disconnects
We are told directly in 240.4(G) that 430 will modify the rules in 240.
There is nothing in 110.26 that says 404 will modify 110.26
Bob
[ December 05, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Jim what you are suggesting is that we can pick and choose exceptions from all over the code book to fit.
We are told directly in 240.4(G) that 430 will modify the rules in 240.
There is nothing in 110.26 that says 404 will modify 110.26
Bob
[ December 05, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: a/c disconnects
110.26 is a code section that needs a lot of work, but the CMP is very reluctant to make any changes. If you apply the actual wording of 110.26, you can make a case that the kitchen countertop receptacles required by 210.52 are in fact prohibited by 110.26. The current wording also uses a term, "likely" that is listed as "vague and possibly unenforceable" in the NEC style manual.
Don
110.26 is a code section that needs a lot of work, but the CMP is very reluctant to make any changes. If you apply the actual wording of 110.26, you can make a case that the kitchen countertop receptacles required by 210.52 are in fact prohibited by 110.26. The current wording also uses a term, "likely" that is listed as "vague and possibly unenforceable" in the NEC style manual.
Don
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: a/c disconnects
iwire
240.4(G) only applies to specific conductor applications as referenced in Table 240.4(G). My logic would also apply to the disconnects required by 430, and the disconnects for my resistance welder for example. Neither is required to have the ampacity of the OCPD.
From my perspective Chapters 4-8 modify the general requirements of Chapters 1-3. Each Section only modifies the requirements for the equipment that it apply to. Switches in 404, motors and circuit components in 430, hermetic sealed motors in 440, etc.
In the case of a switch installed higher than 6'7" the Handbook has Fig 100.1 which depicts all three exceptions to 404.8(A) I don't know how you can apply the rules of 404 without exempting some of the rules 110.
iwire
240.4(G) only applies to specific conductor applications as referenced in Table 240.4(G). My logic would also apply to the disconnects required by 430, and the disconnects for my resistance welder for example. Neither is required to have the ampacity of the OCPD.
From my perspective Chapters 4-8 modify the general requirements of Chapters 1-3. Each Section only modifies the requirements for the equipment that it apply to. Switches in 404, motors and circuit components in 430, hermetic sealed motors in 440, etc.
In the case of a switch installed higher than 6'7" the Handbook has Fig 100.1 which depicts all three exceptions to 404.8(A) I don't know how you can apply the rules of 404 without exempting some of the rules 110.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: a/c disconnects
Jim take a look at 90.3
Bob
Jim take a look at 90.3
Bob
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: a/c disconnects
iwire
Thank you for the heads up and correction. It is clear that NEC divides things at Chapter 5 not Chapter 4.
I need to ponder the Articles of Chapter 4 since they still seem to modify parts of Chapters 1-3 in my mind.
iwire
Thank you for the heads up and correction. It is clear that NEC divides things at Chapter 5 not Chapter 4.
I need to ponder the Articles of Chapter 4 since they still seem to modify parts of Chapters 1-3 in my mind.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: a/c disconnects
110.26 states "..."note the dot dot dots cause those are important, "...Enclosures housing electrical apparatus that are controlled by a lock(s) shall be considered accessible to qualified persons."
Throw a padlock on the disconnect and tell the inspector Slim's got the key.
God, I love being a smartass...
Wouldn't you consider an A/C disconnect to fall under 110.26(A)(1)(a)? They do design them as dead front, so your depth problem is fixed there, right? With the depth reduced to zero, you can say the 30" of width is present easily, right?
Is that a mastery of reasoning or am I retarded?
110.26 states "..."note the dot dot dots cause those are important, "...Enclosures housing electrical apparatus that are controlled by a lock(s) shall be considered accessible to qualified persons."
Throw a padlock on the disconnect and tell the inspector Slim's got the key.
God, I love being a smartass...
Wouldn't you consider an A/C disconnect to fall under 110.26(A)(1)(a)? They do design them as dead front, so your depth problem is fixed there, right? With the depth reduced to zero, you can say the 30" of width is present easily, right?
Is that a mastery of reasoning or am I retarded?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: a/c disconnects
Is there a third option?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: a/c disconnects
Handsome? Suave? Rich?
Maybe in the next life...
Handsome? Suave? Rich?
Maybe in the next life...
Re: a/c disconnects
It seems to me that section 110.26(A) gives the clearance requirements. Section 404.8(A) gives the height requirement of switches. It seems to me that you would still need to have the clearance required by section 110.26(A)if you use one the exceptions in section 404.8(A).
It seems to me that section 110.26(A) gives the clearance requirements. Section 404.8(A) gives the height requirement of switches. It seems to me that you would still need to have the clearance required by section 110.26(A)if you use one the exceptions in section 404.8(A).
john m. caloggero
Senior Member
Re: a/c disconnects
A disconnect for an AC unit is usually the location where a voltage test or current test is performed when a unit does not operate. The first paragraph of Section 110.26 makes it clear that sufficient work space must be provided to allow service personnel to SAFELY operate and work on the equipment. If personnel have to straddle metal pipes or have their back against a metal AC unit, this is not providing safe work space. The second paragraph provides the parameters that define a safe work space based on the voltage to ground and the conductive equpment or materials within certain parameters. when push comes to shove and it goes to court, you better have the correct work space for personnel.
A disconnect for an AC unit is usually the location where a voltage test or current test is performed when a unit does not operate. The first paragraph of Section 110.26 makes it clear that sufficient work space must be provided to allow service personnel to SAFELY operate and work on the equipment. If personnel have to straddle metal pipes or have their back against a metal AC unit, this is not providing safe work space. The second paragraph provides the parameters that define a safe work space based on the voltage to ground and the conductive equpment or materials within certain parameters. when push comes to shove and it goes to court, you better have the correct work space for personnel.
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