A couple Service Upgrade questions

[FESApprentice2496]

I've been wondering for a couple years now but just haven't had much sidework. When doing a panel upgrade do you have to use AFCI breakers in bedrooms.

Also if your upgrading a 200 amp panel to a different manufacturer do you have to upgrade the meter base also even though there is not a need to, but there might be that's why I'm asking.

I am no longer an apprentice this username was made a few years back.

 

[roger]

I've been wondering for a couple years now but just haven't had much sidework. When doing a panel upgrade do you have to use AFCI breakers in bedrooms.

Read 210.12 of the code cycle you are under

Also if your upgrading a 200 amp panel to a different manufacturer do you have to upgrade the meter base also even though there is not a need to, but there might be that's why I'm asking.

Probably not unless it's a local rule.

Roger

 

[jmsbrush]

Are you a licensed contractor and insured?

 

[renosteinke]

I hate to say this, but your training and experience should already have addressed these issues. The term 'not yet qualified' comes to mind.

"Sidework" is a term that's sure to raise a few hackles. Far better to bring your boss into the job; you'll be seen as a 'successfful salesman' rather than as a 'conniver.'

A 'service change' involves the PoCo, so it involves their rules as well as the NEC. They may require a load calculation from you.

Simply replacing the breaker box ought not require you to use AFCI's. Changing the circuits themselves will.

 

[FESApprentice2496]

nowhere in the apprenticeship did they talk about upgrading a residential panel, and whether or not you need to change the meter base.

I've upgraded the meter base in the pass I was just wondering if you have to, this is just a panel change, the correct wire SE cable is there already.

and I don't see what the difference is asking these questions here or to the inspector, most of you are or have dealt with inspectors anyway.

I don't see how I'm not qualified by asking a question, I'm not asking how to wire up a S.P. switch.

and I''m insured, I'm not licensed by the state and don't have to be. I passed the national test to get a license for cities.

 

[renosteinke]

I think it was the mention of 'sidework' that has folks on edge. The term suggests that you work for an EC, and that this is something you will be doing after hours, behind his back. As you might guess, EC's don't like it when their employees undercut them!

This is certainly something that the apprenticeship should have covered - both in class and on the job. While there's nothing wrong with asking a question, this particular one opens up nearly countless 'what if's' that will vary by the job..

First off, a 'service change' implies everything from the PoCo wires to the branch circuit breakers. It's not just a panel swap. Chances are you'll have to change the meter can- NEC requires a minimum 100 amp service, and some bases are rated only to 60 amps. Let the PoCo disconnect the wires - then reconnect them later. They have their own connectors they like to use.

A larger service means larger wires- which in turn means you get to replace the mast with one that's at least 2" pipe. If your area uses SER, someone else will have to give you pointers.

If there's no grounding electrode (apart from the water bond), you get to bang in a ground rod. Maybe two. How you run the wire from the panel to the ground rod is often specified by the town; ask them.

Your service disconnect will have to rated for the larger service as well. That's where you will 'create' the ground wire- at the neutral lug- if the disconnect is also your main breaker. That, in turn, means you do NOT use the green screw that comes with the panel, and get to mount an additional ground buss. There is no reason that the disconnect needs to be the same brand as the panel.

Nor is there any requirement that you use AFCI breakers. You WILL, however, need to put the circuits that share a neutral on a two-pole breaker, and the breakers need to be the right size. If there was 'double lugging,' or multiple circuits (like the water heater and dryer) "shared" a breaker, you will have to add some breakers.

For you Easterners ... if I've mixed things up a bit, please remember that I typically use "all-in-one" assemblies.

 

[growler]

When doing a panel upgrade do you have to use AFCI breakers in bedrooms.

Also if your upgrading a 200 amp panel to a different manufacturer do you have to upgrade the meter base.

this is just a panel change.

You were not very clear about what you are trying to do. Are you changing out a panel to another of the same ampacity 100.150.200 or are you increasing the amperage of the panel that you are installing?

If it's a simple panel swap out there are some areas that don't even require a permit and if they do it's considered a "repair" because you haven't really changed anything just replaced with a newer version. But if you were to increase the amperage/service size this would be considered new work because it's not pre-existing.

The rules will change from area to area and also depending on what you actually plan to do. With a local inspector you can noramlly talk about what you intend to do and he can inform you of any local codes that people here may be unaware of.

But even the inspector may not be willing to tell you what the power company will require on a service up-grade because he doesn't have "authority" over them.

Your question may be simple but the answer can get complicated. I have done a lot of these and still need to check with the local authorities when outside my normal work area.

 

[FESApprentice2496]

the company i work for doesn't do any residential electrical work. and I said in my previous post the wire is the correct size and its just a change to a different manufacturer.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No you don't need to add afci breakers on a service change , however, there are some areas that are making the contractors install them.

Changing brands does not mean you have to change the meter base. You may be asked to add ground rods if they don't exist already.

 

[220/221]

I've been wondering for a couple years now but just haven't had much sidework. When doing a panel upgrade do you have to use AFCI breakers in bedrooms.

Also if your upgrading a 200 amp panel to a different manufacturer do you have to upgrade the meter base also even though there is not a need to, but there might be that's why I'm asking.

I am no longer an apprentice this username was made a few years back.

Answers to your questions can only be answered by your AHJ.

HERE, the POCO strongly suggests meter socket replacement. The city only requires upgrades to bonding/grounding.

 

[satcom]

the company i work for doesn't do any residential electrical work. and I said in my previous post the wire is the correct size and its just a change to a different manufacturer.

Changing a panel usually involves more work then just putting in the load center in most areas as soon as you remove the meter you need a permit and need to notify the power company you will also need to upgrade the grounding a bonding don't forget to check the meter pan for rotten or loose connections and if it is ser cable check the condition of the cable and it's connections

Also if the new panel is a SQ D you may need to use ground bushing if the service lateral is metal.

When I first started out one mistake I made was trying to change just the panel it always ended up costing me money

 

[mjf]

Talk to your AHJ

Talk to your AHJ

Best advice I have for you is to ask whoever is going to inspect your work what your local requirements are.

We have a few local "requirements" that some folks may consider not appropriate although they are geared towards safety.

for instance.... If I am removing an old "Pushmatic" 100 amp panel for a new 100 amp panel, even if the existing wires from meter pan to main panel is still in pristine condition, if it is the old cloth sheathed and not vinyl sheathed, I MUST replace it.

Now that I've touched the meter pan, if it is the old "A-Frame" style, I MUST replace it.

Now that I've touched the service wire...no matter what condition it is in...if it's not vinyl sheathed.... I MUST replace it.

 

[knoppdude]

Answers to your questions can only be answered by your AHJ.

HERE, the POCO strongly suggests meter socket replacement. The city only requires upgrades to bonding/grounding.

This is the best advice for this job. While there are all kinds of good advice on this forum, the AHJ is the final authority, so this is the person you should talk with, they will tell you exactly what they require for your job.

 

[ike5547]

No you don't need to add afci breakers on a service change , however, there are some areas that are making the contractors install them.

Changing brands does not mean you have to change the meter base. You may be asked to add ground rods if they don't exist already.

The OP asks a simple question and finally gets an answer.

FES can safely ignore most of the others (except talking to the AHJ which is good advice.)