A GE label that was discovered in a GE cabinet elclosing a panelboard

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joe tedesco

joe tedesco

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REPORT ON DISCUSSIONS DURING UL MEETINGS
WITH ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS AT THE 2006 IAEI SECTION MEETINGS​

Question: Panelboard neutral and grounding conductor terminations. For panelboards, how many grounding and neutral bar conductors can you use under each terminal screw?

Answer: UL Lists Panelboards under the product category ?Panelboards (QEUY).? Guide Information can be found in UL?s Online Certification Directory at www.ul.com/database, and on page 196 in the 2006 UL White Book.

Panelboards are required to be marked with the number and size of conductors for each terminal on the grounding or neutral bus.

For panelboards, UL requires that an individual terminal be provided for the connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor and, with one exception, that the number of individual terminals be not less than 75 percent of the total number of individual fuseholder or circuit-breaker poles capable of being installed in the panelboard. Under the exception, the number of terminals may be reduced to 50 percent if the panelboard is marked to indicate the maximum number of circuits and the need to use mulitpole branch-circuit units to limit the number of terminals to a specified number.

As indicated in the UL Guide Information for ?Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations (AALZ)? product terminals are acceptable for connection of only one conductor, unless there is a marking or wiring diagram indicating the number of conductors, which may be connected.

Always comply with any markings located on the panelboard; these markings will identify the number and size of conductors permitted for each terminal.

Now what? Pierre. Bob, Don?
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Joe,
How old is the panel with that label? I know that the UL standard has specified one conductor per termination point for many years, but I don't know when that became part of the UL standard.
Don
 
I know it is hard to tell from the picture, but I think Don has it correct. It looks quite old, possibly installed beforet the UL requirement became well known and certainly before the NEC installed it as code.

Could also have been a typo - ;)
 
Typo?

Typo?

Pierre C Belarge said:
I know it is hard to tell from the picture, but I think Don has it correct. It looks quite old, possibly installed beforet the UL requirement became well known and certainly before the NEC installed it as code.

Could also have been a typo - ;)
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Possible typo, but this subject was discussed long ago and here's where that label was first posted. In the interest of clarification and to avoid confusion we need to look into this:

Here the link
 
The installer must follow the directions and instructions supplied by the manufacturer. UL requires an information label to be installed in the equipment by the manufacturer. There is no conflict.

A problem could occur when the UL requirements change, in effect causing new equipment to have different labeling then existing equipment, but the NEC is generally not retro-active.
 
Conflict? What conflict?

All installation instructions required by a UL standard will have words to the effect of "Install per NEC"

NEC says one grounded conductor per terminal, so no problem.

You have to comply with all requirements unless they are specifically exempted.
 
Larry,
NEC says one grounded conductor per terminal, so no problem.
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The problem is that the code was changed to match the UL standard because people were not reading the label. The UL rule predated the NEC rule by a number of years.
Don
 
Joe,
Possible typo, but this subject was discussed long ago and here's where that label was first posted.
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If the original post is correct, this is an issue for UL or whom ever listed that panel. Did you or anyone else submit the label, model number and date to UL?
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Larry,

The problem is that the code was changed to match the UL standard because people were not reading the label. The UL rule predated the NEC rule by a number of years.
Don
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I always used 110.14(A) for terminations. Before the new rule. Didn't that predate the neutral thing?

Besides the possible typo, I just don't see what the hoopla over this is?
 
jwelectric said:
Maybe it would help us to understand what is going if we knew what is a neutral, any body want explain just what is a neutral?
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The NEC uses the term "grounded conductor" to refer to what everyone else on the planet (including UL) refers to as a neutral.
 
dbuckley said:
The NEC uses the term "grounded conductor" to refer to what everyone else on the planet (including UL) refers to as a neutral.
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I don't think that I would include UL in that statement. Most of the people that I have talked with at UL and they are many knows that a neutral carries the unblanced load.

The UL Standard has nothing at all to do with the installation of the panel and its enclosure. The UL standard is a certification standard and is not the installation standard.

In the case of this panel the NEC will be what mandates the installation of the grounded conductor.

If someone has the ROP for the 2002 code cycle they can see the proposal made my Jim Pauly from Square "D" concerning this topic and see where all this UL standard talk came from.

Pay close attention what was used as a substantiation for this change. This is one of them non life safety issues and in my opinion should have been rejected but when his coworker Ronald Reed of Square "D" sit the panel in carge of the proposal it is a give me.

9- 113 - (384-21 (New) ): Accept
SUBMITTER: James T. Pauley, Square D Co.
RECOMMENDATION: Add a new 384-21 to read as follows:
384-21. Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel parallel shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.
SUBSTANTIATION: This revision is needed to coordinate the installation requirements with a long standing product standard requirement. Clause 12.3.10 of UL 67 (Panelboards) states ?An individual terminal shall be provided for the connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor.? The requirement has been enforced in the past by a close review of the manufacturers markings and by NEC 110-3(b). However, since it is a rule that specifically effects how the installer can make connections, it is important that it be in the NEC.
Even with the manufacturers markings, inspectors still indicate that they see a number of panelboards installed with two (or more) branch circuit neutrals under one terminal or they see an equipment grounding conductor and neutral under the same terminal.

There is very good rationale for the requirement in the product standards. Doubling up on the neutrals creates a significant problem when the circuit needs to be isolated. In order to isolate the circuit, the branch breaker is turned off and the neutral is disconnected by removing it from the terminal. If the terminal is shared with another circuit, the connection on the other (still energized) circuit will be loosened as well. This can wreak havoc, particularly if the neutral is part of a 120/240V multi-wire branch circuit. Also, the neutral assemblies are not evaluated with doubled-up neutrals in the terminals.

The connection of a neutral and equipment grounding conductor creates a similar issue. One of the objectives of the particular arrangement of bonding jumpers, neutrals and equipment grounds is to allow circuit isolation while keeping the equipment grounding conductor still connected to the grounding electrode (see UL 896A - Reference standard for Service Equipment). When the neutral is disconnected, the objective is to still have the equipment ground solidly connected to the grounding electrode. If both the neutral and grounded conductor are under the same terminal, this cannot be accomplished.
This addition to the NEC does not change any product or permitted wiring arrangement from what it is today. It will however, it will help installers to avoid wiring the panel in violation of 110-3(b) and then have to contend with a red-tag from the inspector.
The code language is proposed in a fashion to allow consistent enforcement of the provision the AHJ. Although the UL wording is adequate for the product standard, it is important that the NEC language is as clear an unambiguous as possible. This is the reason for specifically noting that the terminal cannot be used for another conductor. Furthermore, the code requirement has been worded to make sure that both branch circuit and feeder neutrals are covered since it is not uncommon to have feeder breakers as well as branch breakers in the panelboard (the issue for the neutral is the same regardless of branch or feeder). Also, the term ?grounded conductor? is used to be consistent with the code terminology and to recognize that not all grounded conductors are neutrals.
An exception has been proposed to avoid any confusion relative to parallel circuit arrangements. In these instances, multiple neutrals could be in a single terminal if the terminal has been identified as acceptable for multiple conductors.
PANEL ACTION: Accept.
In the proposed exception, change the second instance of the word ?parallel? to ?conductors?.
PANEL STATEMENT: The correction of the typographical error meets the intent of the submitter.
NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 11
VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
AFFIRMATIVE: 11


 
Mike,
In my opinion the following is the most important part of the substantiation.
This revision is needed to coordinate the installation requirements with a long standing product standard requirement. Clause 12.3.10 of UL 67 (Panelboards) states “An individual terminal shall be provided for the connection of each branch-circuit neutral conductor.” The requirement has been enforced in the past by a close review of the manufacturers markings and by NEC 110-3(b). However, since it is a rule that specifically effects how the installer can make connections, it is important that it be in the NEC.
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Don
 
Don

UL Standard 67 has nothing to do with the installation of the grounded conductor nor does it have anything to do with the ground bar that the grounded conductor lands on except that UL Standard 67 makes reference to another UL Standard which is the standard that is used for ground bars installed in panel enclosures. Both of these UL Standards are standards used for the certification process and not for the installation process.

None of this has anything to do with the field installation of the equipment. The instructions that are included with the listing and labeling of the equipment are what govern the field installation of the conductors and these instructions are included with the equipment when the installer buys the equipment. It is on the UL label as pointed out in the original post of this thread. That is the installation instructions. 408.21 of the 2002 and 408.41 of the 2005 code cycles mandate one grounded conductor per screw and a code section will always prevail over the installation instructions.

In order to obtain a copy of UL Standard 67 go this website, www.comm-2000.com/catalog.aspx?sendingPageType=BigBrowser&CatalogID=Standards In the left corner type in "67" and then look at the contents. You can see that the terminal bar is not mentioned at all but the terminal space is. In the center of the page is the price for this standard $974. Now add the price of a code book as we are over $1000 just to know how to install a panel. No I don't believe this is how it works.

If UL Standard 67 has to be purchased for an additional fee then it is not included as outlined in 110.3(B) as part of the installation instructions.
A simple email or phone call to UL and one can find out all this information for their self and don?t have to take my word for it at all. It is real simple to do as this is the exact step that I took to find the information.

If every piece of electrical equipment installed had to installed by the UL Standard that it was certified with an electrician would have to spend upwards of 50 to 60 thousand dollars with every code change as the UL Standards try to stay in step the NEC instead of the other way around.
 
Mike,
The standard is a product standard, but when the terminal bar is tested it is tested and approved for use with one grounded conductor per terminal. This ends up being on the label of the product and is a listing and labeling instruction and compliace is required by 110.3(B). There is no need for the installer to have a copy of the UL standard.
Don
 
Don

I have talked at length with UL about the reference to UL Standard 67 as a way to enforce the installation of one grounded conductor under one screw in panels installed prior to the adoption of the 2002 NEC. This is an insert of an email that I received from UL, ?UL 67 is a Certification Standard, not an installation standard?
I was also referenced to the Marking Guide for Panels for installation instructions that will always be brought up to the current NEC.

The author of this thread is trying to use the reference that Jim Pauley used in his proposal and then applying 110.3(B) and 110.14(A) to say that panels installed prior to the adoption of the 2002 NEC is in violation if they have more than one grounded conductor under one screw.

To make sure that I teach the proper language in the classroom I took the time to contact UL for a clarification on this issue and here is what I was told,? On installation issues, the NEC takes precedence over UL 67.?

If this panel was installed prior to the adoption of the 2002 NEC then this label and 110.3(B) would allow the number of conductors stated to land under one screw.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1152&d=1200476991

Now if I am wrong it is due to the information that I got from UL?s own engineers. Anyone can contact UL and get the same information.

By the language found in 110.3(B), in order for someone to quote part of Standard 67 to mandate the installation then Standard 67 would be required to be included with each and every panel sold as part of the labeling process.
 
Mike,
By the language found in 110.3(B), in order for someone to quote part of Standard 67 to mandate the installation then Standard 67 would be required to be included with each and every panel sold as part of the labeling process.
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In my opinion only (some of) the information provided with the the panel is listing and labeling instructions that fall under 110.3(B). The label stating one grounded conductor per termination point is a listing and labeling instruction. It is my understanding labels stating this have been on the panel for many years, but were not being read by the installer. The code rule was only to make it easier to enforce by giving the inspector an actual rule instead of him having to use 110.3(B).
On installation issues, the NEC takes precedence over UL 67.?
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So if the listing and labeling instructions state something that is not required by the NEC, then we do not have to comply with them??
Don
 
I am basing everything that I am fixing to say on a conversation I had with a UL engineer concerning UL Standard 67. We talked at length on the phone and covered a lot of material. I explained that I was an electrical instructor and gave a link to the school where I teach so he would have access to the type of classes that I teach.

According to him UL Standard 67 has no effect on the installation of the equipment. This is the standard that is used in the certification process of the equipment. The only way that a code enforcement official would have access to this standard is to purchase it from UL just as the panel manufactures are required to purchase.

The label that is included with the equipment coupled with the Marking Guide has the instructions for installing the equipment and can be obtained from UL electronically or request a copy and it will be mailed.

Then I asked about this scenario; A panel that was installed prior to the adoption of the 2002 NEC has three grounded conductors under one screw as outlined on the label in the panel concerning the ground bar. For what ever reason, a remote panel was installed and fed from this existing panel to add new equipment. When the code enforcement official came to do the inspection of the new panel and equipment he required the existing panel to have the multiple conductors removed and one grounded conductor under one screw and quoted 110.3(B) as being the violation as outlined in UL Standard 67.

To this scenario his reply was;

UL 67 is a Certification Standard, not an installation standard. UL 67 tries to enforce the same requirements as the NEC, but sometimes things don't quite play out that way. On installation issues, the NEC takes precedence over UL 67.

UL 67 requires certain markings to be included on the panelboard as well as on the actual installation instructions.
 
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Mike,
According to him UL Standard 67 has no effect on the installation of the equipment. This is the standard that is used in the certification process of the equipment.
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This is the standard that the panel is built and tested to. If the standard says only one conductor and that information is on the panel label, that is a 110.3(B) instruction. I have never said that the installer or inspector must have a copy of the standard. All I have said is that the standard says one conductor per termination point and that information is on the label on the panel. 110.3(B) requires compliance with that "listing and labeling" instruction and the code rule was put in only becasuse too many installers don't bother to read the label....however I don't think that those installers would read the NEC either.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
So if the listing and labeling instructions state something that is not required by the NEC, then we do not have to comply with them??
Don
Click to expand...

Yes. And vice versa also.

An electrician who doesn't read the instructions is not likely to even own an NEC.
 
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