A Neutral is Numbing my mind.

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AndrewG185

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I need everyone to throw out some ideas because I am stuck on this one. I will try to be as accurate and brief with describing my problem. I am remodeling a kitchen and the existing switch for the kitchen light was powered by a 15amp receptacle in the living room. The outlet is part of a series in the living room, and a wire was simply pig-tailed into the duplex, nothing tricky. I took the duplex out to disconnect the wire, as I ran a new circuit to handle a new series of recessed lights, and noticed that it was damaged so I replaced it with a new 15amp TR duplex. The problem is.....when I connect the neutral to to the duplex from the receptacle upstream, it trips the breaker. With the wires not connected at all, the breaker stays on, if I wire nut the hots and neutrals to each other(respectively) the breaker stays on. When i touch the hot and neutral to a plug, it powers it up no problem. The only thing that trips the breaker is when I touch energized line's neutral to the duplex. I just don't get it. The ground being connected makes no difference, and I am 100% that there is no contacting happening behind the wall outside the box. Ideas?
 
A Neutral is Numbing my mind.

Please remove said wire from your mind... :p

AndrewG185 said:
I need everyone to throw out some ideas because I am stuck on this one. I will try to be as accurate and brief with describing my problem. I am remodeling a kitchen and the existing switch for the kitchen light was powered by a 15amp receptacle in the living room. The outlet is part of a series in the living room, and a wire was simply pig-tailed into the duplex, nothing tricky. I took the duplex out to disconnect the wire, as I ran a new circuit to handle a new series of recessed lights, and noticed that it was damaged so I replaced it with a new 15amp TR duplex. The problem is.....when I connect the neutral to to the duplex from the receptacle upstream, it trips the breaker. With the wires not connected at all, the breaker stays on, if I wire nut the hots and neutrals to each other(respectively) the breaker stays on. When i touch the hot and neutral to a plug, it powers it up no problem. The only thing that trips the breaker is when I touch energized line's neutral to the duplex. I just don't get it. The ground being connected makes no difference, and I am 100% that there is no contacting happening behind the wall outside the box. Ideas?
Click to expand...

Bad duplex... :happyyes:

...and if I missed it elsewhere...

Welcome to the forum :thumbsup:
 
AndrewG185 said:
Tried 3 different duplex's, I am confident that equipment failure is not the issue.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your description...

How many sets of circuit conductors in the box, i.e. hot/neutral pairs?

When you connect all the hots and all the neutrals, breaker does not trip.

When you connect a neutral (by itself) to a duplex receptacle, the breaker trips?

Other than that, it sounds like somewhere at least one hot and one neutral got reversed... and you are connecting an energized "white" and a neutral "white" together.

FWIW, you shouldn't be doing any connecting while the breaker is on... :happyno:
 
Are you sure that you are wiring to the correct terminal(s)?
Please measure voltages wire to wire and wires to ground.
My guess is that hot and neutral are reversed somewhere and that a fake ground has been made at some point in the circuit.
But I do not see how it would cause those symptoms without more.
1. Is the breaker a GFCI?
2. Is the receptacle two or three wire?
3. You say the ground is not connected, but is the yoke touching a grounded box?
4. Is the circuit an MWBC?
5. How was the old receptacle damaged? Neutral burned out???

Tapatalk...
 
GoldDigger said:
Are you sure that you are wiring to the correct terminal(s)?
Please measure voltages wire to wire and wires to ground.
My guess is that hot and neutral are reversed somewhere and that a fake ground has been made at some point in the circuit.
But I do not see how it would cause those symptoms without more.
1. Is the breaker a GFCI?
2. Is the receptacle two or three wire?
3. You say the ground is not connected, but is the yoke touching a grounded box?
4. Is the circuit an MWBC?
5. How was the old receptacle damaged? Neutral burned out???

Tapatalk...
Click to expand...

In addition to these good points, I would ask you to check and see if the "tap" between the screws on the old receptacle had been removed or cut. Without a better description of the wires entering the box, I can't tell, but I wonder the old receptacle had one side switched. Often times, on older installs this was accomplished in strange ways such as switched neutrals.
 
Smart $ said:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your description...

How many sets of circuit conductors in the box, i.e. hot/neutral pairs?

When you connect all the hots and all the neutrals, breaker does not trip.

When you connect a neutral (by itself) to a duplex receptacle, the breaker trips?

Other than that, it sounds like somewhere at least one hot and one neutral got reversed... and you are connecting an energized "white" and a neutral "white" together.

FWIW, you shouldn't be doing any connecting while the breaker is on... :happyno:
Click to expand...

There is a 14/2 wire coming from the upstream receptacle and a 14/2 wire going to the next receptacle in the sequence. When I connect the hot wire to the duplex, and then the neutral, it trips the breaker. The wires on the duplex upstream are properly landed on the terminal screws. Reversed wires was one of my initial suspicions. Also bear in mind that the duplex I replaced was properly wired and functioning.
 
AndrewG185 said:
There is a 14/2 wire coming from the upstream receptacle and a 14/2 wire going to the next receptacle in the sequence. When I connect the hot wire to the duplex, and then the neutral, it trips the breaker. The wires on the duplex upstream are properly landed on the terminal screws. Reversed wires was one of my initial suspicions. Also bear in mind that the duplex I replaced was properly wired and functioning.
Click to expand...


If you can wire nut all hots together and all neutrals together, respectively, and breaker holds, than try pig-tailing off of those connections to a receptacle. If breaker still trips than you have a whole batch of bad receptacles.
 
AndrewG185 said:
There is a 14/2 wire coming from the upstream receptacle and a 14/2 wire going to the next receptacle in the sequence. When I connect the hot wire to the duplex, and then the neutral, it trips the breaker. The wires on the duplex upstream are properly landed on the terminal screws. Reversed wires was one of my initial suspicions. Also bear in mind that the duplex I replaced was properly wired and functioning.
Click to expand...
No sense in speculating further. Use a meter and check the voltage of all wires to a known good ground (wire ends isolated).... and continuity to ground on any wire having no voltage to ground. Report your findings...

Also, are you certain the 14/2 to the next receptacle in the sequence actually goes to the next receptacle in the sequence... and is not a switch leg???
 
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mjf said:
If you can wire nut all hots together and all neutrals together, respectively, and breaker holds, than try pig-tailing off of those connections to a receptacle. If breaker still trips than you have a whole batch of bad receptacles.
Click to expand...
I'm inclined to agree. If the "downstream" cable is a switch leg, and the switch is closed, the breaker would trip when wired black to black and white to white.

A continuity check of the receptacles' hot to neutral would confirm.
 
Smart $ said:
Also, are you certain the 14/2 to the next receptacle in the sequence actually goes to the next receptacle in the sequence... and is not a switch leg???
Click to expand...


Winner, Winner...Chicken dinner. I asked my customer today if half of the outlet was served by a switch. I got the blank stare. Its a fairly large room....I did some poking around and located a switch BEHIND A FRAMED PAINTING...which was partially covered by a fake plant. I asked the customer what the switch controlled (blank stare). I flipped the switch off, wired the duplex back up, flipped the switch on and pop goes the breaker. SWITCH LEG. Wired the duplex properly, works like a champ, case closed. Thanks everyone, 3 gold stars for Smart $. Could I have eventually figured this out on my own?:slaphead: Sure, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to cruise these forums, everyone wins.
 
AndrewG185 said:
Winner, Winner...Chicken dinner. I asked my customer today if half of the outlet was served by a switch. I got the blank stare. Its a fairly large room....I did some poking around and located a switch BEHIND A FRAMED PAINTING...which was partially covered by a fake plant. I asked the customer what the switch controlled (blank stare). I flipped the switch off, wired the duplex back up, flipped the switch on and pop goes the breaker. SWITCH LEG. Wired the duplex properly, works like a champ, case closed. Thanks everyone, 3 gold stars for Smart $. Could I have eventually figured this out on my own?:slaphead: Sure, but then I wouldn't have an excuse to cruise these forums, everyone wins.
Click to expand...

Can I have 1 gold star......see post #8:D
 
mjf said:
I can't count how many times Homeowners have said, " I don't know what this switch does". Almost always turns out to be 1/2 a duplex switched.
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I had to go back to a house I did a service call on because apparently I inadvertently flipped a switch that worked the table light. :lol:
 
3/way not working, asked HO where the other switch was, he said there wasn't one. The wall where the other 3/way would logically be was faced with stacked rock (indoors).

Think the rock masons got in after the electrician.
 
readydave8 said:
3/way not working, asked HO where the other switch was, he said there wasn't one. The wall where the other 3/way would logically be was faced with stacked rock (indoors).

Think the rock masons got in after the electrician.
Click to expand...
How brain dead would a mason have to be to rock over a wall switch?
 
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