A print engineering ?

[jmsbrush]

When a Gc that you work with on a regular basis, gives you a print and wants you to give him and estimate (Residential) and when he gives you the print it has no electrical on it. What do you do in those cases. He wants me to engineer the print. He said make it code minimum. I can do that of course, but that takes time.. Do you guys charge for this?? Do you add this on to the contract price, or do just look at it as, its just part of the business.

 

[bikeindy]

It takes time to lay out the house too, you charge for that right. So build your time for adding the electric to the plans in your quote. Don't give him any electrical drawings unless you are being paid for it upfront. Simply use the plans to come up with your code minimum price. I suggest a walk through with the homeowner to get the extras that they will surely want.

 

[ohm]

I get a lot of "print engineering". I fact I sometimes even CAD up an electrical print from the basic layout or even from a walk-thru w/ the owner. Sometimes my drawings are submitted to other EC's for a price and sometimes my drawing is the only drawing on the job and it's used to obtain the building permit.

I still do it to clarify just what I intend to do for the price I bid and very sedom do I lose the job. Sure it's a risk but it also blows everyone out of the water who quotes on a brown paper bag.

On a fire station I submitted a full set of drawings, bill of materials and load calculations. When the bids were being opened my price was in line and my bid generatd tremendous interest (and confusion) since it include documentation which everyone else was charging an extra $5000 for. Needles to say I got the job.

I've been told the Chief Electrical Inspector in my county has carried my work around the Permit Office sayig how great it was.

 

[iwire]

I get a lot of "print engineering". I fact I sometimes even CAD up an electrical print from the basic layout or even from a walk-thru w/ the owner. Sometimes my drawings are submitted to other EC's for a price and sometimes my drawing is the only drawing on the job and it's used to obtain the building permit.

Why in the world would you provide that service for free?

 

[bkludecke]

Boy this one hits home. I remember well back when I was a naive and trusting sole and did the engineering, prepared a bid and found out the GC used my engineering to solicite other bids. Charge for the engineering separately or simply give the GC a design/build bid based on NEC minimums.

BTW. Most folks don't realize what NEC minimum can mean. Years ago a spec-builder was insistant that I wire a small house to NEC minimum. I explained that the NEC did not even require a disposal outlet or switch and he said not to put it in then. It turned out that he ended up having to move into the house himself and his wife called to complain that the plumber was adding a disposal and there was no place to plug it in or a switch. I told her about the instructions I had from hubby. She had me come and add the wiring at great expense to her and hubby (finished 1 story house on slab)

Somedays are just better than others.

 

[growler]

BTW. Most folks don't realize what NEC minimum can mean.

Real good point.

If you don't have a stairway then you don't need a single 3-ways switch, no fan boxes, no dish washer, no disposal, no under cabinate lighting, no overhead lights in most rooms. One TV and one phone jack.

I would make sure this guy knows what he's asking for before I spent any time on the bid. Most builders think code minimum just means no frills but they do expect some basic items that are not code minimum.

 

[jmsbrush]

I do allot of work for this guy. I know ,there I am being trusting! Good point about code Min. Here's another ? about resi. There is a master closet thats 24 x8 Thats pretty big,Well anyways,. Does that closet have to have Recpts 6' from the door and 12' thereof? Or any closet for that matter?

 

[emahler]

On a fire station I submitted a full set of drawings, bill of materials and load calculations. When the bids were being opened my price was in line and my bid generatd tremendous interest (and confusion) since it include documentation which everyone else was charging an extra $5000 for. Needles to say I got the job.

I would be more impressed if everyone else was giving themselves away, and you charged $5000 for it...and got the job...

you just got the job by working for free, that's not that hard...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I do allot of work for this guy. I know ,there I am being trusting! Good point about code Min. Here's another ? about resi. There is a master closet thats 24 x8 Thats pretty big,Well anyways,. Does that closet have to have Recpts 6' from the door and 12' thereof? Or any closet for that matter?

If it is a closet than it does not need receptacles. It may be worthwhile putting one but it is not required.

 

[roger]

I know residential drawings are one thing, but when it comes to commercial drawings some state require a licensed PE to seal a design.

In these states I think it is illegal to charge a fee for designing without being a PE or at least employed by a PE.

Roger

 

[emahler]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

 

[iwire]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

 

[EBFD6]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

Anything's possible.....................for a fee!:smile:

 

[bbaumer]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

Signing off on someone elses design that is not of your employ is illegal, in Indiana anyway.

I think we've had this discussion before on here........too lazy to look up the law again but I am sure I posted it in another thread a few months ago.

 

[satcom]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

Ok have been thru this many times here in Jersey, the print or design must be signed and sealed by a licensed PE, you can sign and attach your seal to the print and it would not be illegal, but the AHJ may not accept it and your insurance carrier would not be happy knowing your doing design work with out a license or coverage to do designs.

 

[roger]

Actually, it's not illegal to charge for a design. It's just not a legal design until a PE signs off.

Does that make sense?

Not true, in many cases it is illegal.

Even if a law is not an issue, their ethics may be.

Roger

 

[roger]

I should have said, an engineer signing off on some elses design may be an issue with their ethics. IMO, this can be likened to selling an EC license.

OTOH, if an engineer was contracted to review, correct, and seal a set of drawings, this would be another story.

Roger

 

[JohnE]

No because most of the EEs here will tell you they can not sign their name to your work.


But it seems to happen quite often.

But here in MA a EE is not required. A qualified individual (licensed electricain) can do the design.

 

[emahler]

Not true, in many cases it is illegal.

Even if a law is not an issue, their ethics may be.

Roger

Roger,

i agree with you about the ethics...but there is nothing illegal, anyplace, about you paying me for my time to come up with a design....

that being said, without the proper licensing, that design is worthless...but you are legally allowed to pay me for it...

does that make more sense?

 

[roger]

Roger,

i agree with you about the ethics...but there is nothing illegal, anyplace, about you paying me for my time to come up with a design....

I agree that if I want to pay you I can, but if you are charging a fee for a design I must ask, can you provide substantiation that you are legally allowed to charge a fee as a designer?

that being said, without the proper licensing, that design is worthless...

Agreed

but you are legally allowed to pay me for it...

I can agree with that but, as a blanket statement, are you allowed to charge for a design. (remember that we are talking about more than one area here)

does that make more sense?

Maybe. :wink:

Roger