A question of titles

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iwire

iwire

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On another forum an electrical contractor that has gotten an engineering degree was wondering if he could use his EC seal (A NJ thing) to seal prints.

Some of us pointed out that he was not an engineer until he took and passed a test while others feel he is an engineer because he has an engineering degree.

It was also stated that he could do electrical engineering and just have PE stamp the work. I feel that is also false.

So what is the straight dope on this?

TIA, Bob
 
Maybe not quite the Straight Dope, but if he has an engineering degree, I'd call him an engineer and the work is engineering. And if he's being paid to do engineering work, you might call him a professional engineer. OTOH, he's not a "Professional Engineer" (PE), as the term is legally used.

According to http://www.nspe.org/Licensure/WhatisaPE/index.html:
To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency.

* Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program
* Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam
* Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE
* Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam
Click to expand...
 
In many states, mine included, you are not permitted to advertise yourself as being able to perform engineering work, unless you are registered in this state as a PE. The process of getting a PE is exactly what zbang has quoted. The rule against a non-PE advertising engineering work includes the requirement that a person with an engineering degree but not a PE is not allowed to put the word ?engineer? on their business card.

So my answer would have to start with a reminder that we all speak at least two languages: our native tongue (for most of us, that is English) and the language of our respective profession. In the language I like to call ?conversational English,? the person you are talking about can call himself an ?engineer,? and I would use the same term in describing him. But in the language of the profession he and I share, he is not an ?engineer.? So if he wishes to use that term to describe himself, I would caution him to be careful to know his audience, and to be sensitive to the difference between the two ways that term can be used.

As to sealing a drawing with this EC seal, I will say that if NJ allows an EC to do that, and if he retains his license as an EC, then he can still do what an EC can do. But if the project requires a drawing to be sealed by an engineer, then he cannot use his EC seal for that purpose.

He can do work under the supervision of a PE, and have that PE apply his or her seal on the documents. But he cannot complete a project, and ask a PE to seal the document, if that PE has had no prior involvement in the project and has done nothing that could count as supervising the work.
 
I wanted to make another point, but I didn?t want it to get buried in my previous post. So here it is.

When a PE seals and signs a document, that action constitutes a declaration to the world that, ?This work was done by me, or under my supervision.? That is the one and only thing that the seal means. It does not mean that I approve the work, or that I have reviewed it, or that I certify that it is in compliance with codes or client requirements. Naturally, most PEs would not sign or seal a document, unless all those things are true. However, I will repeat that the seal and signature mean one thing, and one thing only: ?I am responsible for this work.?
 
Thanks to both of you. :)

Charlie, my views where pretty much formed by your posts here so I am very happy to have you explain it in more detail.

I guess my reluctance to call a person with just the degree an engineer goes to my own experience with electrical licensing.

Here I could put in my required school time and my required on the job training but I am not an electrician until I take and pass my test.
 
iwire said:
I guess my reluctance to call a person with just the degree an engineer goes to my own experience with electrical licensing.

Here I could put in my required school time and my required on the job training but I am not an electrician until I take and pass my test.
Click to expand...

We need to stop using a single word to describe things. In our English language, adjectives and other modifiers exist for a reason.

After you finish your schooling, say you went to work in an industrial facility doing nothing but electrical maintenance, would you refer to yourself as an electrician?

An engineer is not necessarily a licensed Professional Engineer.
An electrician is not not necessarily a licensed electrical contractor.
 
jim dungar said:
After you finish your schooling, say you went to work in an industrial facility doing nothing but electrical maintenance, would you refer to yourself as an electrician?
Click to expand...

No I would not.

An electrical maintenance worker perhaps but not an electrician.

Same as I don't consider stage electricians actually electricians unless they hold a license and they never seem to.
 
There are a lot of licensed drivers out there but not all of them can drive.....
Holds true in a lot of the trades too.

:0)
 
The NJ Uniform Construction Code (UCC) requires a licensed engineer with some limited exceptions. An EE with only an electrical contractors license cannot seal drawings that require a licensed engineer.

(f) Plans, plan review, plan release:
vii. Engineering details and specifications: The construction official and appropriate subcode of-
ficial may require adequate details of structural, mechanical, plumbing and electrical work, includ-
ing computations, stress diagrams and other essential technical data to be filed. All engineering
plans and computations shall bear the seal and signature of the licensed engineer or registered
architect responsible for the design. Plans for buildings shall indicate how required structural and
fire-resistance rating will be maintained for penetrations made for electrical, mechanical, plumbing
and communication conduits, pipes and systems.
(1) Plumbing plans for class III structures may be prepared by persons licensed pursuant to
"The Master Plumber Licensing Act", N.J.S.A. 45:14C-1 et seq. Electrical plans for class III struc-
tures may be prepared by persons licensed pursuant to "The Electrical Contractors Licensing Act",
N.J.S.A. 45:5A-1 et seq.;
Click to expand...
 
These are what plumbers and electrical contractors can seal in NJ.

1. Class 3 agencies:
i. Group B less than 7,200 square feet, two stories, 40 feet high;
ii. Group M less than 4,800 square feet, one story, 40 feet high;
iii. Group S-1 less than 4,200 square feet, one story, 40 feet high;
iv. Group S-2 less than 7,200 square feet, two stories, 40 feet high;
v. Group R-3 as permitted in the building subcode and including accessory private garages, radio andtelevision antennae and swimming pools;
vi. Group R-5 as permitted in the one- and two-family dwelling subcode and including accessory private​
garages, radio and television antennae and swimming pools.
 
Education is one thing, being licensed by an authority to do something is another. Having an education but no license is a realistic possibility where having a license with no education is not as realistic.

Even other professionals have similar issues. If you go to med school or law school you still have to pass licensing type exams to practice or even pass additional exams to practice on your own instead of under someone else.
 
I see the word electrician as a generic term. There are different classifications of electricians from helper to master. By definition even a 1st year apprentice is an electrician.
 
I am a PE registered in NJ.

The law is quite clear. You may not call yourself a professional engineer, or advertise engineering services to the general public unless you have a PE license. You may call yourself an engineer if you have a degree and do engineering work for your employer.

I believe the distinction bewtween the PE and EC licenses is that you can use your electricians seal to certify work that your company will do, but not the work of anyone else. A professional engineer can seal his own designs (and not those of others), but anyone can do the work. The PE maintains liability for the design forever, no matter who builds it.
 
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