Abandoned Feeder Wires in Conduit

[dduffee260]

We are instructed to demo out a 400 amp service in a large building. They tell us to just cut the conduit and leave the 400 amp feeder wires in the conduit. I thought in the 2005 NEC there was a rule that said we had to remove the wire from the conduit or terminate it. Is there such a rule for feeder wires? I know somewhere in Section 700 it addresses signal wires.

 

[joebell]

Re: Abandoned Feeder Wires in Conduit

I can't find anything that says the feeder wire must be removed. In the 600,700& 800 they have code requiring the removal of abandoned cabling. There is always 110.12 "neat and workmanlike manner".

 

[bdingman]

The following appears in NFPA 1, Chapter 11, paragraph 11.1.4:

"Permanent wiring abandoned in place shall be tagged or otherwise identified at its terminations and junction points as " Abandoned in Place" or removed from all accessible areas and insulated from contact with other live electrical wiring or devices."

Why isn't this exact paragraph in the NEC, Article 300?

 

[petersonra]

There is always 110.12 "neat and workmanlike manner".

As long as the cut is neat and the wires are capped off, why waste a lot of time and money removing the old wires?

You never know if down the road you might need it again.

 

[steve66]

I think Charlie B has a rule that might apply here. The general rule is that if you use electrcial items for some non-electrical use, the NEC doesn't apply. Say for example you used a conduit for a water pipe (as dumb as that may sound). You don't have to support the conduit per the NEC because it is not part of an electrical installation.

So say you have a conduit and some wire that is part of an electrical installation. Then you cut off both ends of the conduit and wire. Now it is no longer being used as part of the electrical installation, so would the NEC even apply?

 

[charlie b]

Interesting point, Steve. But then why do we have to remove, or label, abandoned low voltage cables (e.g., TV, security, phone)? What is it about those types of cables that caused the NEC authors to require extra steps, and why are these steps not needed for power feeders and branch circuit conductors?

 

[petersonra]

Interesting point, Steve. But then why do we have to remove, or label, abandoned low voltage cables (e.g., TV, security, phone)? What is it about those types of cables that caused the NEC authors to require extra steps, and why are these steps not needed for power feeders and branch circuit conductors?

My cynical guess is that someone snuck that into the code to garner extra work for ECs doing low voltage work. It is pretty easy to sneak such things into new code sections. It is much more difficult to get them added to existing code sections.

 

[iwire]

I am still trying to comprehend a dead 400 amp feeder that the conductors did not remove themselves at some point.

Edit my poor spellin'

 

[steve66]

Interesting point, Steve. But then why do we have to remove, or label, abandoned low voltage cables (e.g., TV, security, phone)? What is it about those types of cables that caused the NEC authors to require extra steps, and why are these steps not needed for power feeders and branch circuit conductors?

My only guess is it is because low voltage cables wind up above suspended ceilings, where they become food for fires.

Or maybe I'm trying to strech your rule too far. Maybe once something is part of the electrcial installation, it is always subject to the NEC. I guess its all up to the local AHJ.

 

[tom baker]

Interesting point, Steve. But then why do we have to remove, or label, abandoned low voltage cables (e.g., TV, security, phone)? What is it about those types of cables that caused the NEC authors to require extra steps, and why are these steps not needed for power feeders and branch circuit conductors?

Because the low voltage cables are almost always not in conduit, the amount of low voltage cables adds to the fire hazard in a building. Low voltage cables in conduit don't have to be removed, only the accessible portions.

 

[tkb]

As long as the cut is neat and the wires are capped off, why waste a lot of time and money removing the old wires?

You never know if down the road you might need it again.

At $2 to $3 a pound for scrap it may be worth the time.