Accident?

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jim123

Member
Location
new castle,de
The house has all two prong receptacles no grounds.Homeowner wants protection. Instead of rewriting the whole house thought I would put gfci breakers in panel. Would I have to worry about arc faulting the circuits. I don’t feel I am changing or modifying the circuit by changing out the breakers. Any input on this
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would instead install a GFCI receptacle at the first receptacle outlet of each such desired circuit.

Be sure the customer understands the kind of protection each option provides, and doesn't provide.

A grounding receptacle does nothing for loads with 2-prong plugs, but a GFCI stops electrocution.

A GFCI-protected receptacle stops electrocution, but does not ground loads with 3-prong plugs.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
You will first have to see if the receptacles are "daisy chained" together or spidered out of a ceiling box. Many times in old houses without EGC, (here at least) all power comes from the ceiling and shoots down to each receptacle. Or it's hard to find the first receptacle in a circuit since they may be all over the house. So in that case, a GFCI breaker would be better.
I would not put in AFCI breaker or receptacle. Probably be a headache with them tripping from neutrals tied into different circuits. Unless you get an AFCI breaker without the GFPE part in them. If all you are doing is adding GFCI protection then the AFCI is not required anyway.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
as an aside, i've found that running some solid #8 around to tag all those older homes ungrounded metallics enhances any GF protection ...~RJ~
 
The house has all two prong receptacles no grounds.Homeowner wants protection. Instead of rewriting the whole house thought I would put gfci breakers in panel. Would I have to worry about arc faulting the circuits. I don’t feel I am changing or modifying the circuit by changing out the breakers. Any input on this
'
Yes you do have to add AFCI protection. See 406.4(D)(4). Enjoy.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Would I have to worry about arc faulting the circuits. I don’t feel I am changing or modifying the circuit by changing out the breakers. Any input on this
'
Yes you do have to add AFCI protection. See 406.4(D)(4). Enjoy.

If they refuse a rewire I would install arc fault/ GFCI combination breakers and just see how things work out.

Let the homeowner know that any trouble shooting will be billed as time and materials.

You may have to do some rewiring. It really depends on the condition of the wiring at exist. Some houses are in such bad shape that they need rewiring.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
If the homeowner wishes additional protection they my be forced to a complete rewire.

Your choices for additional protection are combination GFCI/AFCI receptacles or breakers. The GFCI function will trip on any current that leaves the protected circuit...which includes a ground fault but also includes a perfectly functioning (though arguably broken) circuit that improperly shares a neutral. Very likely there will be a huge amount of work mapping out the existing circuits and finding any of these problems.

You will also have to find every single minor ground fault (old insulation spots with a few mA of leakage, bad switches, etc.). Now these faults are _real_ and should be found and replaced, but they are found in seemingly working systems. If the wiring is old enough then there are certainly some of these faults.

Once you sum up the work above, you may find that there is less work (and less cost for the customer) involved in a complete rewire.

It is unfortunate that there isn't some sort of logger that you could quickly attach to the circuits at the panel to see how bad the problem will be. There might be no problem at all....or it might be a nightmare.

-Jon
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
It is unfortunate that there isn't some sort of logger that you could quickly attach to the circuits at the panel to see how bad the problem will be. There might be no problem at all....or it might be a nightmare.

-Jon


well there is, sorta.....de-energize, take all noodles off , start ringing them out to ground and/or each other....

&&&, if at all possible, use these>


~RJ~
 
I really might not be too bad. I am assuming the primary issue would be neutrals tied between different circuits. If you run into such an issue, I would have no issue combing two problematic circuits into one if they were just serving general light and receps. A two pole afci is another option bit you would still need to deal with the GFCI part, perhaps that could be done with receps (I am not aware of anyone making two pole DF breakers).
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Making this work without a total rewire sounds like a tremendous headache and more importantly a can of worms. Probably end up losing money on this deal. I would most likely decline this job.
 

Knuckle Dragger

Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
Location
Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You are making it safer by just adding GFCI circuit breakers and doing nothing else if that's your plan.
Just be mindful of shared neutrals and other possible ground faults that may occur after the GFCI CB's are installed.
No AFCI protection is required if doing just that.
Feel free to correct me I am mistaken.
 

ramsy

Roger Ruhle dba NoFixNoPay
Location
LA basin, CA
Occupation
Service Electrician 2020 NEC
Making this work without a total rewire sounds like a tremendous headache and more importantly a can of worms. Probably end up losing money on this deal. I would most likely decline this job.

No contractor does this, since these projects don’t pay and aren’t worth it.

Since, housing-authority inspection corrections are required during occupancy, for me the nightmare is municipal inspectors failing these GFCI installs, with their departments ignoring 406.4(D)(2) code references. If any comment is made, it demands complete building rewire.

In my case, AHJ’s go on high alert with any owner-builder permit, synonymous with laborers doing it, since Supreme court precedent punishes AHJ’s that tolerate unskilled persons that do electrical, Lowe v. Lowndes County Building Inspection Department, 760 So. 2d 711 (Miss. 2000).

There are no contractors that waist their time with 406.4(D)(2), and when attempted by a contractor’s side-worker employee, weekend warrior, or if DIY home owners try it themselves, there is no chance of passing inspection. In absence of any standard-operating proof of skills from the owner builder, and their laborers, AHJ’s are failing this regardless of installation perfection.

Even though I've kept busy with a fair T&M rate from these service calls, satisfying requirements for a letter ruling from State-wide insurance organizations may be the only AHJ that authorizes it.

Much less will State certified, licensed, or Master electrician's pass these inspections by using "GFCI Protected" stickers, unless each plug also has the "No Equipment Ground" sticker, affixed to each outlet, in compliance with 406.4(D)(2). This is 1 of many discrepancies IAEI educated inspectors are specifically trained to look for.

Further, a thorough inspection to 406.4(D)(2) is not likely to pass without proving exceptions to 250.114 are met in each case. If you can’t control the cheep appliances & their cords sets, which consumers buy, assuring compliance with 250.114 is not likely.

Where replacement code 406.4(D)(4) now demands AFCI protection I prefer breakers, especially for switched-lighting outlets, unless not available for old fuse boxes. Where replacement code demands GFCI protection, outlets are preferred, unless reset buttons would be buried behind furniture.
 
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growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I really might not be too bad. I am assuming the primary issue would be neutrals tied between different circuits.

You are right and ground faults are the real issue. You can have the same problems with ground fault receptacles.
The age of the house is not as important as the condition of the wiring. I have seen houses that were 50-60 years old and had never had any problems but I have seen 10 year old houses where there was a bunch of rigged wiring.
 
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