Add motion sensor keeping three way toggle switch

[jasonsim]

Im trying to add an occupancy sensor to turn off lights that keep getting left on as cheap as possible and keep the three way switch.
The lights are all LED. Two are recessed floods at 9 watts each. The other two are fluorescent fixtures that have been retrofitted to 2 18 watt LEDs ballast bypass (36 watt total).
Total watts 90
Total amps 0.75
I will need to add a ceiling mounted motion sensor that will turn the lights off if left on.
I dont want to spend the money on two three way motion sensors and a ceiling mounted sensor.
The only way I can think of making this work is to put the ceiling mounted sensor in series with the three way switches, but this would turn the power off to the sensor every time the switch did get turned off. I dont know how the sensor would react to on/off power.
Any ideas? Is there a sensor designed for this kind of operation? Remember Im trying to keep it cheap, under $100 for sensors.

 

[gar]

160201-2119 EST

I doubt that I can give you any help.

From reading your post I don't know what you want to do from a logical circuit perspective.

If you have a motion sensor, then what purpose do the three-way switches serve?

From your description I might assume you want the switches when set to off to inhibit the motion sensor. What is suppose to happen at the time the switches are set to ON? Should this action turn the lights on even with no motion? Meaning apply power to the motion sensor and make it think there is motion. Or just enable the motion sensor function, and require motion to turn on the lights ON?

.

 

[jasonsim]

I thought I explained this.
The light switches need to stay to turn lights on and off.
The motion would only be to turn the lights off if left on.
This is the same as using three way in wall motion sensors and a ceiling mounted switch but I do not want to buy the in wall motion sensors.
The problem is the lights are left on. They need to turn off automatically when they are left on.

 

[GoldDigger]

I thought I explained this.
The light switches need to stay to turn lights on and off.
The motion would only be to turn the lights off if left on.
This is the same as using three way in wall motion sensors and a ceiling mounted switch but I do not want to buy the in wall motion sensors.
The problem is the lights are left on. They need to turn off automatically when they are left on.

It is simple to wire a motion detector in series at either the load end or the other dead end of the switch leg (not between the two switches where there are two traveler wires.
The result will be that as long as the motion detector stays triggered the light will be controlled manually on and off using any of the three way switches. And when the motion detector times out the switches will not be able to turn on the lights, period.

 

[ptonsparky]

Try a vacancy sensor. You manually turn the lights ON but it times to OFF after no motion is detected.

I have not used them in a 3-way. I'll look for a part # once I get the coffee started

 

[Strathead]

Im trying to add an occupancy sensor to turn off lights that keep getting left on as cheap as possible and keep the three way switch.
The lights are all LED. Two are recessed floods at 9 watts each. The other two are fluorescent fixtures that have been retrofitted to 2 18 watt LEDs ballast bypass (36 watt total).
Total watts 90
Total amps 0.75
I will need to add a ceiling mounted motion sensor that will turn the lights off if left on.
I dont want to spend the money on two three way motion sensors and a ceiling mounted sensor.
The only way I can think of making this work is to put the ceiling mounted sensor in series with the three way switches, but this would turn the power off to the sensor every time the switch did get turned off. I dont know how the sensor would react to on/off power.
Any ideas? Is there a sensor designed for this kind of operation? Remember Im trying to keep it cheap, under $100 for sensors.

I don't understand the challenge? Is it that you don't have a constant hot and switch leg both available in the ceiling? (and neutral of course) Any of the major sensor manufacturers have this very typical wiring diagram in the box. Constant hot goes to both the sensor and feeds the 3 way switch, switch leg leaves the switch and goes through the sensor contact, and the neutral feeds the sensor and the light fixture.

 

[ptonsparky]

I know you said keep toggle but try this.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=IPV15-1LZ&section=38557&minisite=10251 About $45 each

They have ceiling mounts that would use a momentary switch at each switch location to turn the lights on. I have not used these.

 

[sparkyrick]

Wire the ceiling motion sensor on the line side of the three ways, with the load of the motion feeding the switches. That way, the motion will always have power.

 

[sparkyrick]

I know you said keep toggle but try this.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=IPV15-1LZ&section=38557&minisite=10251 About $45 each

They have ceiling mounts that would use a momentary switch at each switch location to turn the lights on. I have not used these.

Depending on how the wires are pulled, this could be an issue.

Both the IPV15 and the IPS15 have screw terminals for easy installation and require a neutral wire for connection

I've installed dozens of these as both single pole and three way applications and they don't require a neutral connection.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=ODS10-IDI&section=38557&minisite=10251

 

[ptonsparky]

Given the KW usage of these and the budget limit, I would be tempted to let them run 24/7.

 

[mgookin]

Given the KW usage of these and the budget limit, I would be tempted to let them run 24/7.

It's the cost of the bulb & the service trip cost to swap it out that's more than the energy.

Even a POCO that gets free power wants that $500 corba head switching like clockwork. They want 15 years out of that 100k hour fixture, not 10.

 

[kwired]

Given the KW usage of these and the budget limit, I would be tempted to let them run 24/7.

Exactly. Cost of just one service call when the occupancy sensor doesn't work right is more then the energy used for a whole year, maybe even 10 years, and I tell customers that even though not telling them favors my pocketbook. Some still want the gadgetry and or can't stand to see a light on when they think it shouldn't be.

 

[mgookin]

... Some still want the gadgetry and or can't stand to see a light on when they think it shouldn't be.

It's a PR thing. It looks bad when a company leaves all their lights on for no reason. Same with dayburners.

 

[sparkyrick]

Exactly. Cost of just one service call when the occupancy sensor doesn't work right is more then the energy used for a whole year, maybe even 10 years, and I tell customers that even though not telling them favors my pocketbook. Some still want the gadgetry and or can't stand to see a light on when they think it shouldn't be.

I just got done installing two of these sophisticated timer switches at an older church to control some outdoor lights. It didn't take too long for the elder folks to try getting into the programming to change the sunset offset time and get them all messed up. I had to go back and reprogram them with a one hour offset. Pretty sure I'll be back there to do the same thing again when they realize one hour was probably too much and they'll mess them up again. Cool switches, if you're techy. Not gonna like when the internal battery finally dies and they lose all programming and that will happen.

 

[Strathead]

Wire the ceiling motion sensor on the line side of the three ways, with the load of the motion feeding the switches. That way, the motion will always have power.

Yeah, I was having a real brain fart. Do what he says ignore me!

 

[mgookin]

I just got done installing two of these sophisticated timer switches at an older church to control some outdoor lights. It didn't take too long for the elder folks to try getting into the programming to change the sunset offset time and get them all messed up. I had to go back and reprogram them with a one hour offset. Pretty sure I'll be back there to do the same thing again when they realize one hour was probably too much and they'll mess them up again. Cool switches, if you're techy. Not gonna like when the internal battery finally dies and they lose all programming and that will happen.

How long did it take for the install, the reading of instruction and the programming?

 

[sparkyrick]

How long did it take for the install, the reading of instruction and the programming?

Install was quick. Figuring out the initial setup and programming took me a half hour, and I'm a techy guy! I think I had to do a factory reset twice before I finally got it right.

 

[jasonsim]

Wire the ceiling motion sensor on the line side of the three ways, with the load of the motion feeding the switches. That way, the motion will always have power.

I didnt think about wiring the motion sensor ahead of the switches. I kept putting the switch first. It will take some extra wiring but that is material we already have. I think we will need 2 sensors though. I didnt give a lot of specifics on the architecture..

There are two doors, a switch by each door that opens to a short hallway. There is an open door way into the room.
The switches turn on all lights in the hallway area and room.

Buying a three way in wall occupancy sensor, a companion switch, ceiling mounted sensor, along with any required relays or power supplies would be close to $300. After the cost of the LED retrofit there is not much left in the budget.

 

[sparkyrick]

I didnt think about wiring the motion sensor ahead of the switches. I kept putting the switch first. It will take some extra wiring but that is material we already have. I think we will need 2 sensors though. I didnt give a lot of specifics on the architecture..

There are two doors, a switch by each door that opens to a short hallway. There is an open door way into the room.
The switches turn on all lights in the hallway area and room.

Buying a three way in wall occupancy sensor, a companion switch, ceiling mounted sensor, along with any required relays or power supplies would be close to $300. After the cost of the LED retrofit there is not much left in the budget.

Talk to the customer and see if they would be comfortable just replacing both three ways with wall motion sensors. At $28.00 bucks each on Amazon, I think it's the best way to go.

 

[ptonsparky]

I didnt think about wiring the motion sensor ahead of the switches. I kept putting the switch first. It will take some extra wiring but that is material we already have. I think we will need 2 sensors though. I didnt give a lot of specifics on the architecture..

There are two doors, a switch by each door that opens to a short hallway. There is an open door way into the room.
The switches turn on all lights in the hallway area and room.

Buying a three way in wall occupancy sensor, a companion switch, ceiling mounted sensor, along with any required relays or power supplies would be close to $300. After the cost of the LED retrofit there is not much left in the budget.

I would hazard a guess that most of us did not think about putting the sensor ahead of the switch. To easy.