AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

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bigjohn67

Senior Member
I know this is off the wall but I will be willing to bet you it happens more often than never.

Say you wire a new house. You wire each room on its own circuit or even combine them to cut down on the cost of buying AFCI breakers. Well in your wiring you pick up a feed to power the smoke detectors from the bedroom. Here's my problem with this.

A loose connection in an outlet that an small heater or what ever (you name the load) starts to show fault. Before the AFCI can trip, a small fire starts, by this time the AFCI does it's job and trips the breaker, which also kills power to the smoke detectors. Batteries in the smoke detector have not been changed in years. I know its the owners fault for not changing the batteries since most fire departments in my area give them away for free when the time changes.

I just think its a valid point to not pick up the feed for smoke detectors off circuits feed from AFCI breakers. I know this is reaching far but I would think that any of you out there would agree that this could happen.

Id love your input.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

Bigjohn This subject comes up a lot and there are strong arguments for both sides of this.

Try a search of this site and using the words

"AFCI smoke"

You will get a lot of info.

Right now the NEC requires smokes in bedrooms to be on an AFCI.

[ November 19, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
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bigjohn67

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

Thanks Iwire for the information.

... but my opinion stands firm... Smoke detectors should not be on AFCI breakers.

I guess someone is going to have to loose their life (not changing batteries and AFCI tripping)
To get them to change it.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

Our state AHJ feels the same way as well as I do and I have heard that the 2005 NFPA 70 might also. Here in Indiana we only have to protect the receptacle outlets. as our code was rewrote like it said in the 1999 NEC
 
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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

If the battery is low or missing while the smoke detector has power it will beep every few seconds to indicate the problem. The only way to stop the beeping is to replace the battery or remove the battery and disconnect the AC power. If the occupant can?t hear the low battery warning before the AC failure they probably would not hear the detector if it went into full alarm.
 
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curt swartz

Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
Location
San Jose, CA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

Wayne

I agree with you. That's why I said remove the battery and disconnect the AC power.

I don't see how an AC smoke detector that has battery backup could fail to function if the AC power is interrupted since the occupants would have know about the dead/low battery long before the AC power failed. I feel that smoke detectors should be connected to a GL circuit since they don't provide warning of AC power failure. I don't see any problem with connecting them to an AFCI circuit since the occupants will know that the power is off when the lights don't work. Even if a fire does trip the AFCI sooner than it would have a standard breaker the battery will continue to supply the detector for a long time.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

But this is just what a home owner will do as I have gone back into many houses that we wired and look up just to see the smokes not there.
What I would like to see is a perminint rechargable battery (lithem-ion) non-replacable that will charge when there is power and if the battery goes bad the smoke has to be replaced. this will lower the amount of smokes being removed when the dry cell goes dead. and will give an avarge life of ten years to a smoke detector instead of 6 months. another Idea is have the interconnect's wireless somthing like the X-10 system but more reliable this would make retro-fitting into existing structurs a lot more viable. and more likly to happen. If all smoke detectors sent out a signal that was compatable with all smoke detectors then there would be no problems with finding a replacment when one fails instead of having to replace all of them.
 
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eprice

Senior Member
Location
Utah
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

bigjohn,

I haven't made up my mind yet as to whether the requirement that smokes be on an AFCI should remain in the code or not (maybe I lean a little toward keeping it there), but just to respond to your scenario, here goes...

Your scenario was a bit unlikely, but certainly possible. Let me put out a (hypothetical, unlikely, but possible) counter scenario :D . Suppose the smokes are not on an AFCI circuit and an arc developes in the smoke detector supply circuit. Since this is not on an AFCI, the arc persists and a fire results. The smoke detector does work, but the occupant of the house is a deep sleeper or hasn't changed the batteries in his hearing aid for years (well ok, for a few days :D ) The occupant looses his life in a fire that might have been prevented if the smoke detector circuit were protected by an AFCI.

As iwire said, there are good arguments both ways.
 
tonyi

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

My approach, is to attempt to keep smokes off of branches with recepticals. It means an extra branch for lights/smokes, but it removes a number of possible failure modes related to randomly plugged in stuff that can trip an AFCI and ordinary overload trips from plugged in stuff.

It also means ordinary overload trips never leave someone in the dark.
 
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bigjohn67

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

I guess either way you wire them, things can always fail. The main concern here is for human safety and that no one ever looses their life because of fire.
The rechargable battery idea sounds good.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

... but my opinion stands firm... Smoke detectors should not be on AFCI breakers.
Click to expand...
Thats great and I am still firmly planted on the fence. :)

But if you are under the 2002 NEC and intentionally do not use AFCI protection on a bedroom smoke detector you have IMO made a seriously bad decision. :eek:

If something was to happen you will have to explain your actions.

It looks like in the 2005 NEC this will not be required.

Until that time I would follow the book and use the AFCIs for bedroom smokes.
 
tonyi

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

Originally posted by hurk27:
@ $30 to $40 a AFCI breaker your circuit cost will be high.
Click to expand...
In cheap cheap tract housing I suppose it may be an issue. But for custom/remodel type work the owner will understand that not losing your lights on an ordinary overload trip is a big "value add" and well worth the cost of the extra breaker. In the grand scheme of the whole job, the added cost is really not significant.
 
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bigjohn67

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

I only stand by my opinion. Legally I have to do what the 2002 book will require beginning Jan. 4th.

I talked to some manufact. reps. they said that when they become nationaly used the price will come down.. Just as the GFCI receptical has.

Have yall seen the new Lev. GFI's. They increased the cost of a GGI by $2.00
The old ones that included the plate are no longer available.

Im for anything that saves lives, because one day it may be my own.
 
tonyi

tonyi

Senior Member
Re: AFCI and not changing batteries in smoke detectors

The price increase for the new lockout does seem a tad out of line.

I super deal on a big load of Cooper GFCI for $3/ea a while back I'm still working my way through - that'll ease the pain for a while :) .
 
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