AFCI breakers on a lighitng system - Nuisance Trips

[grasfulls]

In performing a major home renovation a Litetouch (now SAVANT) system was installed with all modules fed by individual AFCI breakers. There have been two power outages since the installation. Both times almost all of the AFCI breakers feeding the modules have tripped, no other AFCI breakers do this. Any suggestions on proper remedial action? We were thinking of a whole home surge suppressor at the main panel and another surge arrester at the pane dedicated to the lighting system. Breakers are Cutler Hammer. Driving 22 miles to reset breakers and not bill a client is not fun.

 

[Ponchik]

I know this is not the answer to your solution, but the home owner can not reset a breaker??? They ask you to drive 22 miles to reset the breaker?

 

[Fliz]

ahahah

ahahah

This isn't an unheard of problem. Chances are you got the old Cutler Hammer afci's. They are not rated to handle multi-tap (277/120) ballasts or drivers, only fixtures that are rated for residential. Old breakers still sit on the shelves of many supply shops. Cutler hammer updated their breakers, dont quote me but I think the BRCAFAs are old and the BRCAF120s are the new ones. Actually, the ones that trip like that are two models ago.

They trip due to the high frequency noise of the non linear loads. Just go to cutler hammer website, find out what the latest model they're offering is, buy one (you'll use it on another job somewhere anyways if it doesn't work) put it on a faulty breaker, and I'm >90% sure your problem is solved.

 

[grasfulls]

Homeowner reset breakers

Homeowner reset breakers

I know this is not the answer to your solution, but the home owner can not reset a breaker??? They ask you to drive 22 miles to reset the breaker?

Well, I think when 16 breakers trip, they want to make me come out like it is my fault or something.

 

[grasfulls]

New Cutler Hammer

New Cutler Hammer

This isn't an unheard of problem. Chances are you got the old Cutler Hammer afci's. They are not rated to handle multi-tap (277/120) ballasts or drivers, only fixtures that are rated for residential. Old breakers still sit on the shelves of many supply shops. Cutler hammer updated their breakers, dont quote me but I think the BRCAFAs are old and the BRCAF120s are the new ones. Actually, the ones that trip like that are two models ago.

They trip due to the high frequency noise of the non linear loads. Just go to cutler hammer website, find out what the latest model they're offering is, buy one (you'll use it on another job somewhere anyways if it doesn't work) put it on a faulty breaker, and I'm >90% sure your problem is solved.

Well, I am in the process of finding out from CH direct, sixteen faulty breakers would be interesting. These were ordered and received from CH about 9 months ago, type BR through a local vendor (they had zero in stock). I will need to go back through invoicing to see the order number and then compare that to what is on site. I am pretty sure they end in 120.

We have a lot of breakers on the lighting because we know that on any lighting system, Lutron, Savant, etc, that over 1000 watts of dimming load causes nuisance tripping. I think they trip just do the non-linear start up of all the modules. I do not even understand why they make us put AFCI's into a system where the breaker does not see the load, it sees the module. I should have confirmed that no breaker going through a relay module tripped.

 

[grasfulls]

First comment from Cutler Hammer

First comment from Cutler Hammer

I have my first reply, still working on it:
Gary,
My first thought since it is happening when the power is restored is that the breaker is seeing an overvoltage. The AFCI sensing is accomplished with a circuit board that runs off 120V, if it sees voltage higher than 120V between the hot and the pigtail, the breaker trips to protect that circuit board. I would recommend taking a voltage reading to see if when power is restored there is more voltage than 120 between the pigtail and the hots. If that checks out ok (120V), I would recommend you contact our AFCI tech support group at 800-326-9513 option 1, option 1. They specialize specifically with these breakers.
Thanks,
Click here to answer 2 questions about the service you received today!

Keith Miller
EatonCare ? Technical Resource Center, Application Engineer
Eaton, Electrical Business
175 Vista Boulevard (Avery Creek)
Arden, NC 28704
877 ETN CARE, Option 2, Option 1
Fax: 828 651 0549
TRC@eaton.com
www.Eaton.com

 

[grasfulls]

My reply

My reply

I can certainly shut off power to the panel and restore it, though I do not know if this will duplicate a power outage. I can also attempt to capture the peak voltage. Of course, if nothing trips, this will only lean more toward a PG&E spike on restore of a large portion of grid. They have a major wedding coming up and may not want me there turning things off and on, but we will move toward a resolution, hopefully not the removal of all the AFCI breakers.

By the way, ONLY the AFCI breakers feeding the lighting modules trip. There are other AFCI breakers, none of which are tripping, all the same brand.

 

[GoldDigger]

By the way, ONLY the AFCI breakers feeding the lighting modules trip. There are other AFCI breakers, none of which are tripping, all the same brand.

OK, that means that you may also need to look at the inrush characteristics of those lighting modules. They could be simulating the signature of a series or parallel arc fault, or maybe just drawing excessive inrush current.
If the lighting circuit includes occupancy sensors or other line to ground loads, it might even be the GFCI function of the breaker that is tripping!

I would also look at whether there are MOVs or other surge suppressor components connected to ground in the lighting modules themselves. Those might have to be removed or modified to make the units compatible with those breakers.

In addition to the breaker manufacturer, I would get in contact with the tech support at SAVANT.

 

[darekelec]

i have the same problem on Lutron homeworks system using same C-H breakers.
i even started a new topic
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=153041&page=2&highlight=nuisance

i thought i had neutrals mixed up somewhere but they are 100% ok. i do not think the combination type afci C-H breakers have gfci component any more. i am able to connect 100W bulb hot to ground (not neutral) and they do not trip. i heard that previous afcis had a not listed gfci component to prevent miswiring.

the tripping decreased after i separated magnetic transformer from module but still trips occasionally.
it was funny... NOT... when i would turn off 1 breaker and 1 under it would trip right after.

good luck with your system and update us more often

 

[grasfulls]

savant tech support

savant tech support

OK, that means that you may also need to look at the inrush characteristics of those lighting modules. They could be simulating the signature of a series or parallel arc fault, or maybe just drawing excessive inrush current.
If the lighting circuit includes occupancy sensors or other line to ground loads, it might even be the GFCI function of the breaker that is tripping!

I would also look at whether there are MOVs or other surge suppressor components connected to ground in the lighting modules themselves. Those might have to be removed or modified to make the units compatible with those breakers.

In addition to the breaker manufacturer, I would get in contact with the tech support at SAVANT.

SAVANT tech said it is a breaker issue, of course!

 

[grasfulls]

LUTRON

LUTRON

i have the same problem on Lutron homeworks system using same C-H breakers.
i even started a new topic
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=153041&page=2&highlight=nuisance

i thought i had neutrals mixed up somewhere but they are 100% ok. i do not think the combination type afci C-H breakers have gfci component any more. i am able to connect 100W bulb hot to ground (not neutral) and they do not trip. i heard that previous afcis had a not listed gfci component to prevent miswiring.

the tripping decreased after i separated magnetic transformer from module but still trips occasionally.
it was funny... NOT... when i would turn off 1 breaker and 1 under it would trip right after.

good luck with your system and update us more often

Sounds like you have yours partially worked out. I am to call a group at CH tomorrow who specializes in these breakers, I will post afterward.

I know for a certainty our neutrals are fine. There are only a few MLV loads , most are Inverse Phase LED, but I sure wish I had made not of those that had and those that had not tripped. I have a suspicion that none of the relay modules tripped. For a certainty no AFCI breakers on normal house loads tripped.

 

[LimeTarp]

In performing a major home renovation a Litetouch (now SAVANT) system was installed with all modules fed by individual AFCI breakers. There have been two power outages since the installation. Both times almost all of the AFCI breakers feeding the modules have tripped, no other AFCI breakers do this. Any suggestions on proper remedial action? We were thinking of a whole home surge suppressor at the main panel and another surge arrester at the pane dedicated to the lighting system. Breakers are Cutler Hammer. Driving 22 miles to reset breakers and not bill a client is not fun.

I've been running into scenarios where I've needed circuit breakers by manufacturers that no longer exist which can make things extremely difficult. Breakers from different manufacturers are interchangeable in some cases but I always follow the instruction inside the panel cover.

The last time I had to do this we had to replace multiple circuit breakers, fortunately I was able to get some replacements fast. The breakers were too old and had a heavy load on them for a long duration. I've run into the same problem with the AFCI breakers tripping intermittently but my only solution was to get new ones. We contact cutler hammer but the result was the same. Resetting breakers is just something that is unavoidable sometimes. *sigh*.

I ended up getting the home surge suppressor and the problem was resolved but at cost.

 

[grasfulls]

Surge Suppressors

Surge Suppressors

I've been running into scenarios where I've needed circuit breakers by manufacturers that no longer exist which can make things extremely difficult. Breakers from different manufacturers are interchangeable in some cases but I always follow the instruction inside the panel cover.

The last time I had to do this we had to replace multiple circuit breakers, fortunately I was able to get some replacements fast. The breakers were too old and had a heavy load on them for a long duration. I've run into the same problem with the AFCI breakers tripping intermittently but my only solution was to get new ones. We contact cutler hammer but the result was the same. Resetting breakers is just something that is unavoidable sometimes. *sigh*.

I ended up getting the home surge suppressor and the problem was resolved but at cost.

What type off suppression?
I just got to the next step in CH tech support, a voice message for Joe Fello (SIC?) in Pittsburgh. I am going to mention the problem that was started with the Lutron modules as well.

Pretty soon, my solution is going to be taking all of the AFCI breakers out. I am also going to include boiler-plate in control contracts that AFCIs are required and that there most likely will be nuisance tripping that is beyond my control.

 

[grasfulls]

left a mssg, never called me back

left a mssg, never called me back

What type off suppression?
I just got to the next step in CH tech support, a voice message for Joe Fello (SIC?) in Pittsburgh. I am going to mention the problem that was started with the Lutron modules as well.

Pretty soon, my solution is going to be taking all of the AFCI breakers out. I am also going to include boiler-plate in control contracts that AFCIs are required and that there most likely will be nuisance tripping that is beyond my control.

I will try him again tomorrow.