AFCI breakers

[LRRP_C_CO_67-69]

I caught sight of a note that the 2019 code and beyond requires AFCI breakers for all branch circuits as listed and went on to define just about every room in a dwelling. At an average of $40 per breaker, that rolls out be to a pretty stiff tab and any option to use the AFCI or AFCI/GFCI combo receptacle at just a little less in price than the breakers is pointless since lighting and outlets are typically wired separately and the "entire branch circuit" would include the wiring from panel to the load as well.

While some folks were arguing it to be a great bargain for fire protection, I quite personally saw it through the lens of breakers costing 4 times the amount of standard breakers and pinning an additional $1000 on the cost to update a panel and wiring. I also found it not only ironic, but rather paradoxical that older homes with existing wiring such as the old silver & white fabric type were to be "grandfathered" by code. So a home with brand new wiring accepted as the most safe and reliable product by the NEC must now be be arc-faulted at all defined branch circuits wherein the dated fabric-coated and other inferior wiring in older homes and their connections that are most prone to arc faults and absent a plethora of fire-code revisions are overlooked to prevent a forced cost encounter but not a fire. The AFCI product manufacturers seem intoxicated by the fact that it's a code requirement and price them according to Wall Street standards as much as NEC.

I spent the evening trying to find a sensible workaround and came up empty. I suppose the question is that the code revision would naturally include dedicated appliance circuits as well since they are in the same living spaces defined otherwise? Or did I miss exceptions?

 

[tom baker]

AFCIs have been in the NEC for over 20 years. Lots of issues, but most of us have given up, installed AFCIs and moved on.

 

[tom baker]

No you did not miss exceptions

 

[ptonsparky]

The original added cost was that of three or four breakers. Not much for a $200K home we were told. Yup, right.

 

[LRRP_C_CO_67-69]

Thanks for the replies. I was able to tame my temper when I did a look-back at 2004 or somewhere along that time when it only required them in a couple of specific places, kitchen and laundry I think.

But when I saw the inclusion list for 2019 I pretty much went through the roof. It's easily put $1000 or more onto my electrical upgrade bill and like Tom Baker mentioned and I've recently read, trouble abounds in some cases. So I'm going to bear an expense of considerable proportion to inherit a problem-based code requirement purportedly aimed at improvement.

Okay. Enough said. Just making sure there wasn't some type of legal workaround before I add the electrical supplier as a signatory on my bank account.

Thanks again

 

[tom baker]

Started with dwelling unit bedroom outlets (and a lot of electricians did not know the difference between an outlet and receptacle), Code started with bedrooms just to get started
Then in 2005 the type of AFCI changed as the original type did not offer enough protection ( we were lied to by the AFCI mfgs)
And since then the locations have expanded, today does not include bathroom.
OP post about electrical safety and older homes vs newer is right on

 

[hbiss]

I don't know what your involvement is but I'm thinking DIY?

From a previous thread you stated:

The county here where the home is located (Georgia) is one of the only two in the state with no building department and no inspections except for septic.

So if that's the case why are you even worrying about AFCI? You are lucky enough that you don't have to use them.

Also, apparently you are not familiar with our position on AFCI and that is that it's the biggest fraud in history. You don't have to justify your thoughts. What you are thinking has been stated here one hundred times over.

-Hal

 

[electrofelon]

I caught sight of a note that the 2019 code and beyond requires AFCI breakers for all branch circuits as listed and went on to define just about every room in a dwelling. At an average of $40 per breaker, that rolls out be to a pretty stiff tab

Ummm, have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years?? Also, there is no "2019 code" unless its a state or local code.

and pinning an additional $1000 on the cost to update a panel and wiring.

Panel upgrades usually do not require adding AFCI's

I spent the evening trying to find a sensible workaround and came up empty.

I know some people around here take them out after inspection. I dont know if they pass the savings on to the customer or pocket it (hopefully the former). Either way, its of course not something I would do as a professional, but I would do it on my house and have done it for family and friends.

 

[LRRP_C_CO_67-69]

I don't know what your involvement is but I'm thinking DIY?

From a previous thread you stated:



So if that's the case why are you even worrying about AFCI? You are lucky enough that you don't have to use them.

Also, apparently you are not familiar with our position on AFCI and that is that it's the biggest fraud in history. You don't have to justify your thoughts. What you are thinking has been stated here one hundred times over.

-Hal

I'm a former commercial project manager, retired for some time now. I have remodeled the home under the premise of DIY. The fact that there is no building department or inspection requisites of any kind is precisely why I'm bringing everything up to code. People out here simply build whatever they fancy without any attention to integrity or safety whatsoever, in many cases because they're unaware of the associated risks. The absence of a building department is just about the most absurd circumstance that I've ever encountered. I came across the AFCI issue from a quote being made by someone in a forum that led me to other discussions on the issue.

I'm just angry about it because it smacks of similar issues I've encountered. Most all electrician's comments were negative and they date back to the onset of the issue. My frustration was based upon wanting to meet code and yet faced with an expense and requirement that doesn't pass the smell test for a number of reasons. I will likely install the new standard breakers purchased. The electrical service is entirely brand new and other than the AFCIs it is all to code. We'll simply note the absence of the AFCIs in any sales disclosure and let buyers decide.

 

[LRRP_C_CO_67-69]

Ummm, have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years?? Also, there is no "2019 code" unless its a state or local code.



Panel upgrades usually do not require adding AFCI's





I know some people around here take them out after inspection. I dont know if they pass the savings on to the customer or pocket it (hopefully the former). Either way, its of course not something I would do as a professional, but I would do it on my house and have done it for family and friends.

No, not under a rock certainly. I'm a former commercial project manager retired for some time now. I came across the AFCIs in a forum discussion that dated back some time and simply kept following it back pretty much to its origin. The 2019 reference was Georgia state code and also drawn from a forum discussion. Georgia apparently follows the most recent laundry list of branch circuit locations requiring AFCI protection.

We purchased a HUD foreclosure home and acreage for cash and decided to remodel it as a second home but since then decided to finish up and sell it. Someone mentioned that I shouldn't be concerned anyway because the county doesn't have a building department to hold my feet to the fire but I've always performed any work with responsibility to the rules of engagement. With some exceptions similar to the AFCI debacle, I stand by code requirements as necessary. One look around this county at what has been built absent a building department and inspection requisite entirely supports my position.

Anyway, I've decided to install the new standard circuit breakers as originally planned and divulge the AFCI issue in any seller's disclosure. The rest of the home, including electrical, is up to code. That's where I'm going to rest with it.

 

[LRRP_C_CO_67-69]

Started with dwelling unit bedroom outlets (and a lot of electricians did not know the difference between an outlet and receptacle), Code started with bedrooms just to get started
Then in 2005 the type of AFCI changed as the original type did not offer enough protection ( we were lied to by the AFCI mfgs)
And since then the locations have expanded, today does not include bathroom.
OP post about electrical safety and older homes vs newer is right on

Thanks. I've decided to install the new standard circuit breakers originally purchased and simply mention the AFCI issue in any seller's disclosure. The entire electrical system otherwise is all new and up to code.