AFCI data on home fires 10 yrs later. Any real evidence they work’?

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danickstr

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We are at the 10 year mark for AFCI requirements in most rooms. How many lives have we saved in exchange for all the hassle and cost - any data to support their existence? Yes I know 2002 was first year so don’t tell me. I mean that we added them in 2008 to most of the House.
 
danickstr said:
We are at the 10 year mark for AFCI requirements in most rooms. How many lives have we saved in exchange for all the hassle and cost - any data to support their existence? Yes I know 2002 was first year so don’t tell me. I mean that we added them in 2008 to most of the House.
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Apparently not, because many jurisdictions still only require them for bedroom circuits, if any at all. Tennessee only requires them for bedrooms, and Michigan doesn't require them at all (last time I checked).
 
danickstr said:
We are at the 10 year mark for AFCI requirements in most rooms. How many lives have we saved in exchange for all the hassle and cost - any data to support their existence? Yes I know 2002 was first year so don’t tell me. I mean that we added them in 2008 to most of the House.
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Didn't they first appear in 1999 NEC, but with a Jan 1 2002 date published right in the code - had to give all the manufacturers that didn't have a product yet time to get one on the market before NEC can require it - or something to that effect.
 
Regardless, they have been out there for many years now and have seen substantial implementation. Given that, can anybody say that they have been proven to have saved even one life or prevented one fire? As far as I am aware the answer is a resounding NO.

There have been lots of fire inspectors that have dreamed that fires they looked at could have been prevented had the home had AFCIs. (Consider that every fire whose cause can't be readily determined HAS to be caused by electrical.)

Slip-and-fall attorneys have wheeled their clients into a courtroom, bandaged from head to toe so the client could tell the court that he wouldn't have those burns if his landlord had installed AFCIs.

What more evidence do you need?

-Hal
 
Funny stuff Hal but sad if true. I know MH was investigating the validity of the claims and referenced a lady PhD looking at them as well. Me, I think the bedroom is the only place for them with the lack of actual effectiveness.
 
The thing is the number of fires prevented by a device is extremely hard to prove. 1, fires per year is not a steady state, and even if it were..... let's say in 2002, there were 50 thousand fires caused by electrical faults. Let's say that in 2016 there were 45000 fires caused by electrical. Could one attribute that 5000 reduction in fires due to afci Breakers? a 10% reduction in fires may be just a statistical anomaly.

My gut tells me that some fires were prevented by afci devices, however I do not believe there installation is a significant factor in fire reduction.

I've said this before here and I'll say it again: if you want to reduce the number of deaths, injuries, and property damage, mandating Sprinklers in residences would go much further in reducing all types of fires than AFCIs do for just electrical ones.

Properly installed and functioning smoke alarms, and fire evacuation planning / drills I believe also go much further than AFC I devices. that and proper housekeeping, not storing flammable materials in your basement or garage, and/or in unapproved containers, not using extension cords, not overloading circuits, not using live Christmas trees and letting them run dry, not deep frying frozen turkeys in your house, leaving the stove or dryer unattended Etc
 
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jeff48356 said:
Apparently not, because many jurisdictions still only require them for bedroom circuits, if any at all. Tennessee only requires them for bedrooms, and Michigan doesn't require them at all (last time I checked).
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Virginia is such a jurisdiction. Afci Breakers are only required on circuits that serve bedroom Outlets
 
danickstr said:
Funny stuff Hal but sad if true. I know MH was investigating the validity of the claims and referenced a lady PhD looking at them as well. Me, I think the bedroom is the only place for them with the lack of actual effectiveness.
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Why just the bedroom?


A pinched or frayed cord can be in any house, but conditions of premises wiring being the cause of fires - is probably going to be more common cause as things age then in a brand new wiring installation. Also might be less chance of those pinched or frayed cord in a new installation just because if code was followed there is less chance of needing extension cords.

When those AFCI's get to be 20-30 years old how will we know they are still working? As we all know the homeowners do press the test button at least monthly :happyno:
 
ActionDave said:
I don't doubt this is a possibility, but has it happened yet?
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Oh yeah. I recollect hearing about it or seeing a YouTube a few years ago with the guy all bandaged up testifying or making a statement before some judicial body. Could be I saw it here, posted in one of the AFCI threads.

The lawyers are jumping on this arguing that the technology is there and their clients could have been saved. I've heard that they will even go after the owners and electricians even if their jurisdiction doesn't require AFCIs because they should have known better and installed them anyway.

The only way to stop this madness is for an independent investigation to officially debunk AFCIs effectiveness and finally put it to rest.

-Hal
 
One should think, after all this time has passed, that one of the prominent testing labs, would have, tested, afci's in a lab setting where all sorts of typical arcing fault setups would be employed. We long have read posts that detail exactly what to look for in troubleshooting afci's such as grounds touching neutrals, overdriven staples and on and on. Take those situations and build a testing lab out of possible things that could start up arcing faults. Shoot a few nails in someplace close to wiring. Install a few outlets with the terminal screws loose. Don't tighten some wire nuts. All these should have been attempted in a lab and the facts and data published. That it hasn't been attempted yet is sure fire proof that the devices are phony and they well know so.
 
Let me ask you this, for the benefit of those in favor of AFCIs.

1) Lady plugs her vacuum cleaner into a receptacle and the AFCI trips. She just moves to another receptacle.
2) Lady plugs her vacuum cleaner into a receptacle and has to wiggle the plug and/or notices some arcing.

In which scenario do you think the lady would be most likely to call an electrician to check the receptacle?

In scenario #2, would it be reasonable to believe that the situation presents an imminent, slight or remote danger of fire or loss of life?

-Hal
 
macmikeman said:
One should think, after all this time has passed, that one of the prominent testing labs, would have, tested, afci's in a lab setting where all sorts of typical arcing fault setups would be employed. We long have read posts that detail exactly what to look for in troubleshooting afci's such as grounds touching neutrals, overdriven staples and on and on. Take those situations and build a testing lab out of possible things that could start up arcing faults. Shoot a few nails in someplace close to wiring. Install a few outlets with the terminal screws loose. Don't tighten some wire nuts. All these should have been attempted in a lab and the facts and data published. That it hasn't been attempted yet is sure fire proof that the devices are phony and they well know so.
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Given that, we could go a long way without resorting to extraordinary means such as AFCIs, by tightening up workmanship standards and materials. Outlaw backstabbing and requiring that insulated staples be used with Romex are a couple of changes that could be made. Grounds touching neutrals cause false tripping and not necessarily a hazard but maybe we need to change Romex construction to have an insulated green ground.

-Hal
 
Thank god they are only a recommendation in BS7671 18th edition 2018. But give it a couple of years and we all know what will happen.

RCD’s (EFCI’s) were a recommendation in the 14th edition and are now compulsory for all domestic installations. For once the IET got it right and I fully agreed with the implementation. It’s not very often that happens.

Unfortunately I can see them making a total mess of implementing AFDD’s (AFCI’s).
 
hbiss said:
Oh yeah. I recollect hearing about it or seeing a YouTube a few years ago with the guy all bandaged up testifying or making a statement before some judicial body. Could be I saw it here, posted in one of the AFCI threads.

The lawyers are jumping on this arguing that the technology is there and their clients could have been saved. I've heard that they will even go after the owners and electricians even if their jurisdiction doesn't require AFCIs because they should have known better and installed them anyway.

The only way to stop this madness is for an independent investigation to officially debunk AFCIs effectiveness and finally put it to rest.

-Hal
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Or an investigation that determines there would be no electrical fires if we stopped using electrical energy:)
 
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