AFCI for closet?

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If I put a GFCI for the jacuzzi tub in the walkin closet, does that circuit need to be AFCI?

Assuming the tub is in the bathroom - no.

210.12 starts off with "(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in..."


The "outlet" is at the tub, but make sure your GFCI is not a receptacle type device otherwise you have an "outlet" at the GFCI also.

Also beware if you use a circuit breaker type GFCI in the closet you could create problems with having an overcurrent device in the vicinity of easily ignitable material. 240.24(D)
 

GoldDigger

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Also beware if you use a circuit breaker type GFCI in the closet you could create problems with having an overcurrent device in the vicinity of easily ignitable material. 240.24(D)
But a dead front GFCI device, which would not have any overcurrent function, would be OK, yes?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
But a dead front GFCI device, which would not have any overcurrent function, would be OK, yes?
IMO yes. AFCI is required for "outlets" in the areas mentioned. A similar example is exterior lights with an interior switch in a room that is mentioned in 210.12(A). A switch is not an outlet, the outlet is outside which is not in the list of room types requiring AFCI. A dead front GFCI is not an outlet either. See definition of outlet in art 100.
 

GoldDigger

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Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

AFCI required even if you had a blank cover on it for future use.

But if the box contains a device (like a switch) which does not provide a connection point for utilization equipment, then it would not be an outlet, even if you could at some future time replace the switch with a combo switch/receptacle, right?
 

Sierrasparky

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Electrician ,contractor
I would have never thought that a GFCI faceless device is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

now had the GFCI had receptacle outlets I would agree.
But a blank face device is "not taken to supply utilization equipment" it I assume is supplying a receptacle outlet in the bathroom an non AFCI area.

Had this been a blank cover with the intention of utilization eqipement I would agree.

Look at from this vantage. Say you need to make some splices in a closet as it is in an area that won't be seen. You install a J-box. So now you need to install AFCI for all those circuits if they are 120v?

I think that would be unreasonable.

When AFCI first came onto the market . I saw the Square D flyer showing a nail in the wall piecing the wire and thus tripping the breaker. I thought hey, Do we need to rethink the way we run wires in a home. Do we need to avoid placing non AFCI protected wires in a wall surounding a bedroom? Heck only a bedroom AFCI circuit can get an accidental nail through the wire as those are the only places protected. Somehow the stray nail will only hit the AFCI circuit and miss all the others. Heck you can still place a panel in the bedroom, what about all those kitchen circuits.

sorry about the off topic rant.
 
I would have never thought that a GFCI faceless device is "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment"

now had the GFCI had receptacle outlets I would agree.
But a blank face device is "not taken to supply utilization equipment" it I assume is supplying a receptacle outlet in the bathroom an non AFCI area.

Had this been a blank cover with the intention of utilization eqipement I would agree.

Look at from this vantage. Say you need to make some splices in a closet as it is in an area that won't be seen. You install a J-box. So now you need to install AFCI for all those circuits if they are 120v?

I think that would be unreasonable.

When AFCI first came onto the market . I saw the Square D flyer showing a nail in the wall piecing the wire and thus tripping the breaker. I thought hey, Do we need to rethink the way we run wires in a home. Do we need to avoid placing non AFCI protected wires in a wall surounding a bedroom? Heck only a bedroom AFCI circuit can get an accidental nail through the wire as those are the only places protected. Somehow the stray nail will only hit the AFCI circuit and miss all the others. Heck you can still place a panel in the bedroom, what about all those kitchen circuits.

sorry about the off topic rant.

I won't comment on the validity of installing AFCI's...that horse continually gets beat to death.

IMHO, the "outlet" that is to be AFCI protected is the switch box, receptacle box, round ceiling box, junction box, etc, etc that is mounted in any of the rooms (and similar rooms) mentioned in the NEC code book, no matter what type of device ends up mounted (or not mounted) in it.


Doesn't mean I like it, I just believe that's how the code reads:)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

AFCI required even if you had a blank cover on it for future use.

It is still an outlet (providing a point for utilization equipment)....even if utilization equipment is not installed.

Really you guys? By your definitions every junction box is an outlet then. There is no outlet until there is utilization equipment. It doesn't hurt to plan for an outlet at a specific point in the future but there still is no outlet if there is no utilization equipment.

And like Golddigger mentioned, what if the future intention of a blanked off box is to install a switch?
 
Really you guys? By your definitions every junction box is an outlet then. There is no outlet until there is utilization equipment. It doesn't hurt to plan for an outlet at a specific point in the future but there still is no outlet if there is no utilization equipment.

And like Golddigger mentioned, what if the future intention of a blanked off box is to install a switch?

Forgive me, but I can't help myself.

Receptacles installed to satisfy spacing requirements, but that won't actually be used to utilize electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes would not qualify as utilization equipment and therefore wouldn't need to be AFCI protected no matter where they are located.

So, as long as I tell the AHJ no one's going to plug anything in, I can stop installing AFCI breakers, right???:p:slaphead:

BTW, thanks for getting me to re-look at this....I may be changing my take on the JB part.
 
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GoldDigger

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Forgive me, but I can't help myself.

Receptacles installed to satisfy spacing requirements, but that won't actually be used to utilize electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes would not qualify as utilization equipment and therefore wouldn't need to be AFCI protected no matter where they are located.

So, as long as I tell the AHJ no one's going to plug anything in, I can stop installing AFCI breakers, right???:p:slaphead:

BTW, thanks for getting me to re-look at this....I may be changing my take on the JB part.
Good that you reconsider, IMHO. Up until now the consensus of the Forum seems to have been that a switch located in a protected area but controlling only outlet(s) (receptacle, lighting, etc) in an unprotected area did not force AFCI to be installed for that circuit.

I believe that some state amendments to the NEC make that distinction explicit, although, again IMHO, that language does not really need to be inserted as a local amendment at all, except for clarification.

Taking your argument to the extreme, which I get a kick out of, it would mean that if a main or sub panel is located in a protected area (one that otherwise is a legal place for a panel, of course) then all of the circuits in that panel must be AFCI protected, as well as the feeder to that panel.
 
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Good that you reconsider, IMHO. Up until now the consensus of the Forum seems to have been that a switch located in a protected area but controlling only outlet(s) (receptacle, lighting, etc) in an unprotected area did not force AFCI to be installed for that circuit.

I believe that some state amendments to the NEC make that distinction explicit, although, again IMHO, that language does not really need to be inserted as a local amendment at all, except for clarification.

Taking your argument to the extreme, which I get a kick out of, it would mean that if a main or sub panel is located in a protected area (one that otherwise is a legal place for a panel, of course) then all of the circuits in that panel must be AFCI protected, as well as the feeder to that panel.


At least my intent was realized! Hope you laughed. Good night.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Forgive me, but I can't help myself.

Receptacles installed to satisfy spacing requirements, but that won't actually be used to utilize electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes would not qualify as utilization equipment and therefore wouldn't need to be AFCI protected no matter where they are located.

So, as long as I tell the AHJ no one's going to plug anything in, I can stop installing AFCI breakers, right???:p:slaphead:

BTW, thanks for getting me to re-look at this....I may be changing my take on the JB part.

Maybe I should have worded it a little differently, but I think you know what I meant. A receptacle is not utilization equipment, but does provide an easy connection for utilization equipment. A junction box with a blank cover does not provide this simple connection method. You have no "outlet" until you install a receptacle or hard wire the utilization equipment to that blanked box. A blanked box for a future light is not an outlet until the light is installed, if you know you are going to install the light it is wise to consider AFCI ahead of time if it will apply.
 
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