kaoticbull
Member
I WOULD LIKE TO INSTALL THE COMBINATION AFCI / GFCI BREAKERS FOR EVERY BRANCH CIRCUIT OCD. CAN ANY ONE GIVE ME REASONS WHY THIS MAY BE IMPRACTICAL BESIDES THE OBVIOUS COST.
AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
- Thread starter kaoticbull
- Start date
- Status
hey_poolboy
Senior Member
- Location
- Illinois
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I was unaware that anyone made a combination breaker of that type. If so I certainly wouldn't want one. Besides cost the nuisance tripping alone makes me try to avoid the use of either of these breakers as much as practical.
P.S. please turn off your caps. It makes the post difficult to read and is perceived as shouting.
MIke
I was unaware that anyone made a combination breaker of that type. If so I certainly wouldn't want one. Besides cost the nuisance tripping alone makes me try to avoid the use of either of these breakers as much as practical.
P.S. please turn off your caps. It makes the post difficult to read and is perceived as shouting.
MIke
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I think you are mistaking the GFP protection that is incorporated in AFCI circuit breakers with GFCI protection.
AFCI breakers do not supply GFCI protection and cannot be used to comply with the necessary GFCI protection requirements of the NEC.
If you are thinking "combo type" that is required in 2008, it is not a combo AFCI/GFCI. Check the UL White Book for more info.
GFCI - Class 'A' trips generally at 5 miliamps
GFP - Class 'B' trips generally at 20-40 miliamps
I think you are mistaking the GFP protection that is incorporated in AFCI circuit breakers with GFCI protection.
AFCI breakers do not supply GFCI protection and cannot be used to comply with the necessary GFCI protection requirements of the NEC.
If you are thinking "combo type" that is required in 2008, it is not a combo AFCI/GFCI. Check the UL White Book for more info.
GFCI - Class 'A' trips generally at 5 miliamps
GFP - Class 'B' trips generally at 20-40 miliamps
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
Pierre,
At least one manufacturer has a combination AFCI/GFCI device. This is a Class A GFCI and not GFP.
Don
Pierre,
At least one manufacturer has a combination AFCI/GFCI device. This is a Class A GFCI and not GFP.
Don
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
EDIT... found them. Cutler Hammer. The 20 amp afci/gfci for a CH panel is CH120AFGF. With my normal CH multiplier, I'd be paying around 60-70 bucks for one.
[ December 18, 2005, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
Who? Curious...
EDIT... found them. Cutler Hammer. The 20 amp afci/gfci for a CH panel is CH120AFGF. With my normal CH multiplier, I'd be paying around 60-70 bucks for one.
[ December 18, 2005, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
hey_poolboy
Senior Member
- Location
- Illinois
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
At $60-$70 that would disuade me from using them unless absolutely necessary.
What would one NEED to use this for?
Mike
At $60-$70 that would disuade me from using them unless absolutely necessary.
What would one NEED to use this for?
Mike
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I see it as a waste of money but if one wants the most protection available then go for it.Has anyone tested appliances on them ?
I see it as a waste of money but if one wants the most protection available then go for it.Has anyone tested appliances on them ?
kaoticbull
Member
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I would like to apologize for shouting earlier.
Money aside I guess if everything I plug in is
electrically sound and wired correctly nuisance
tripping should not happen. Then I gain a safer
environment for my family. I wonder if I could save on insurance.
I would like to apologize for shouting earlier.
Money aside I guess if everything I plug in is
electrically sound and wired correctly nuisance
tripping should not happen. Then I gain a safer
environment for my family. I wonder if I could save on insurance.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
If this is for your own family then i can understand wanting the best.Personally i would feel safer if the job was in emt and i would just install gfci receptacles at first point and slave the others.They have not sold me on afci doing any real good that a gfci would not done the same job cheaper.Afci where required only if it was mine.
If this is for your own family then i can understand wanting the best.Personally i would feel safer if the job was in emt and i would just install gfci receptacles at first point and slave the others.They have not sold me on afci doing any real good that a gfci would not done the same job cheaper.Afci where required only if it was mine.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
Don
Thanks for pointing that out to me.
I tried to find out if they are available commercially, but got no response.
Don
Thanks for pointing that out to me.
I tried to find out if they are available commercially, but got no response.
mdshunk
Senior Member
- Location
- Right here.
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I have noticed over time that CH has been a leader in this particular technology area. If the genuine need (or code mandate) does arise for an AFCI/GFCI breaker, they already have a product in place to accomodate that need. This allows them to command a premium price until others enter that product niche too. That's business.
I thought that Washington State considers any room that you can only access through the bedroom as needing AFCI protected too. If so, one of these breakers would preclude the need for a GFCI receptacle in a master bathroom.
[ December 18, 2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
No need at the moment, but it would be a sexy way to protect a receptacle next to a wet bar sink in a master suite.
I have noticed over time that CH has been a leader in this particular technology area. If the genuine need (or code mandate) does arise for an AFCI/GFCI breaker, they already have a product in place to accomodate that need. This allows them to command a premium price until others enter that product niche too. That's business.
I thought that Washington State considers any room that you can only access through the bedroom as needing AFCI protected too. If so, one of these breakers would preclude the need for a GFCI receptacle in a master bathroom.
[ December 18, 2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
ty
Senior Member
- Location
- 3rd Rock from the Sun
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
As I stated in one of them, we use them from time to time on 'Holiday Receptacle Circuts' that are split-wired and are located in a bedroom and garage, for example. (we just finished rough-in of a large custom home with this exact scenario)
You need the AFCI protection for the bedroom located ones and the GFCI protection for the garage located ones.
You can't split-wire a GFCI receptacle, and therefore, you would need to install (2) GFCI receptacles in the garage, if you wanted to use a standard AFCI breaker.
There have been a few threads on this topic before.
As I stated in one of them, we use them from time to time on 'Holiday Receptacle Circuts' that are split-wired and are located in a bedroom and garage, for example. (we just finished rough-in of a large custom home with this exact scenario)
You need the AFCI protection for the bedroom located ones and the GFCI protection for the garage located ones.
You can't split-wire a GFCI receptacle, and therefore, you would need to install (2) GFCI receptacles in the garage, if you wanted to use a standard AFCI breaker.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I'm sure that the only reason that CH has this device is because they intend to push for a major expansion in the locations where AFCIs are required.
Don
I'm sure that the only reason that CH has this device is because they intend to push for a major expansion in the locations where AFCIs are required.
Don
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
In addition, if they get their prices in line, the suppliers can stock one device for two situations...a never ending goal in the supply business.
Be an interesting thing to check when the ROPs come out, see who the submitters are.
In addition, if they get their prices in line, the suppliers can stock one device for two situations...a never ending goal in the supply business.
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
I am concerned with the tendency in our industry to substitute technology for quality. The trend seems to be: Rather than assuring that grounding is properly installed and maintained, let's require GFCI protection. This provides us with a "warm fuzzy feeling" that the installation is safe, but it is a false sense of security. GFCI protects against electrocution, a person can still receive a shock from a GFCI protected circuit and shocks present hazard other than electrocution; falls, flinch reactions, etc. In fact GFCI provides no protection from line to neutral shock or electrocution. I also read someplace that approximately 10% of GFCI devices are no longer capable of protecting the circuit in which they are installed. I would expect the failure rate for AFCI devices will be similar or perhaps even higher. Now we are starting to follow the same scenario for AFCI. The only reliable protection against electrical hazards is the proper installation and maintenance of the electrical system. This is the message that electrical professionals must give the public. There is no device that you can install that will protect people and property against a poorly designed, sloppily installed, poorly maintained electrical system. There is nothing that can be installed on a system that will protect users against their own stupidity. Let's use all of the technology that we can to make our installations safer, but let's use at as a "belt and suspenders" approach to safety, not as a substitute for good installation and maintenance.
I will now get off my soapbox.
I am concerned with the tendency in our industry to substitute technology for quality. The trend seems to be: Rather than assuring that grounding is properly installed and maintained, let's require GFCI protection. This provides us with a "warm fuzzy feeling" that the installation is safe, but it is a false sense of security. GFCI protects against electrocution, a person can still receive a shock from a GFCI protected circuit and shocks present hazard other than electrocution; falls, flinch reactions, etc. In fact GFCI provides no protection from line to neutral shock or electrocution. I also read someplace that approximately 10% of GFCI devices are no longer capable of protecting the circuit in which they are installed. I would expect the failure rate for AFCI devices will be similar or perhaps even higher. Now we are starting to follow the same scenario for AFCI. The only reliable protection against electrical hazards is the proper installation and maintenance of the electrical system. This is the message that electrical professionals must give the public. There is no device that you can install that will protect people and property against a poorly designed, sloppily installed, poorly maintained electrical system. There is nothing that can be installed on a system that will protect users against their own stupidity. Let's use all of the technology that we can to make our installations safer, but let's use at as a "belt and suspenders" approach to safety, not as a substitute for good installation and maintenance.
I will now get off my soapbox.
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
haskindm: I appreciate your stand, and I agree that there is no substitute for a quality installation, however, as you noted above, we apparently have a obligation to protect the end user from his own stupidity. In all fairness, AFCI and GFCI devices take a giant step in doing so. Nothing we do in our installation will prevent the use of a non-grounded extension cord in a rainstorm, but, hopefully, the GFCI will protect the user.
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
Except in the 10% of the installations where the GFCI's no longer work. Educating the consumer to only use a grounded extension cord, though harder, and maybe impossible, would protect the consumer from shock and electrocution. I am certainly not opposed to GFCI and/or AFCI protection and I applaud our industry for adopting this technology, but it is not the answer for everything. I am just concerned that, in their zeal to sell their products, the manufacturers (an by extension the code panels) are selling these devices as cure-alls, when at best they are Band-aids, and additional protection.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
That's news to me. Can you cite a reference, perhaps a WAC article?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI/GFCI BREAKERS
Don
While I agree that the GFCI has value in improving safety, I don't believe that is really true to any extent for the currently available AFCIs. IF the new combination type AFCI function per the manufacturer's claims, then I will change my position. I have no real faith that the new devices will work as claimed because what the new device, that is not yet available, will do is what they claimed the original AFCI would do in the ROP for the 1996 code.
Don
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