AFCI GFCI fault resoultion specialist

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K8MHZ

K8MHZ

Senior Member
Location
Michigan. It's a beautiful peninsula, I've looked
Occupation
Electrician
With all the issues of AFCI and GFCI tripping when it seems like they shouldn't, I am wondering if there is enough of it to specialize in it.

I love to troubleshoot. I know that it will take some time to be efficient solving CI trip problems, but I also know that the more years you put in, the fewer hours you have to put in.

To the EC's. If there was a CI fault specialist that was actually good at it, would you call him in, or would you just have your guys try to de-bug it?

Do you think supply houses and box stores would be willing to refer customers to such a specialist?

Do you think the manufacturers would be kind to such a specialist and offer assistance? I ask because I used to to electrical and electronic repairs on cars and the manufacturers were real tight with info. I backward enginnered many systems just so I would have schematics and also did many 'autopsies' on failed devices. I am used to having no factory help. I am also used to having factory help from working on machine control and recording systems. I like it when the factory helps, but don't need them to proceed.

It appears that RFI can be an issue. I hold an Amateur Extra class radio license. 20 years in just one short month. I have been playing with radios for 45 years.

I am used to building my own test equipment.

If there is a fair chance I could make a viable business out of T-shooting CI's, I would put some money into building a 'lab' and having the various brands to experiment with. I worked in R&D for years and that was fun, too.

I lived off doing electrical work on cars for years. The reason was that 90 percent of the mechanics hated doing it, so they sent the stuff to me. I am hoping that 90 percent of the electricians hate chasing AFCI and GFCI faults and would send them to me.

I am not afraid of failing to solve the problems, I am afraid of putting money into something and not get the referrals.

So, do I have a good idea, or a not so good one???
 
I think the AFCI still has mysteries even to some of the so called experts, but GFCI IMO doesn't need very many people that are specialized at understanding them. First thing is probably about 99% of trip issues with them is a problem that any good general electrical troubleshooter should be able to figure out. The only complex issues with them may be RF interference on occasion like you mentioned. And fully understanding the trip logic circuitry unit isn't all that necessary either, if anything is wrong with it you don't repair it you replace it, as it cost less to replace then to repair.
 
kwired said:
I think the AFCI still has mysteries even to some of the so called experts, but GFCI IMO doesn't need very many people that are specialized at understanding them. First thing is probably about 99% of trip issues with them is a problem that any good general electrical troubleshooter should be able to figure out. The only complex issues with them may be RF interference on occasion like you mentioned. And fully understanding the trip logic circuitry unit isn't all that necessary either, if anything is wrong with it you don't repair it you replace it, as it cost less to replace then to repair.
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Thanks for your input.

Perhaps not 99 percent, but close, of all automotive electrical repairs could be done by a competent mechanic and I still had enough work doing the remaining 1 or so percent, plus getting work from people that could to it, but not as fast or they were to busy to dedicate the time to chase down the problem. It's the toughest 1 percent I like the best, anyway.
 
K8MHZ said:
Thanks for your input.

Perhaps not 99 percent, but close, of all automotive electrical repairs could be done by a competent mechanic and I still had enough work doing the remaining 1 or so percent, plus getting work from people that could to it, but not as fast or they were to busy to dedicate the time to chase down the problem. It's the toughest 1 percent I like the best, anyway.
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Maybe we set too high of standards for "competent" here.

All I know is I am a customer at times as well, and it is no fun having a technician look at something, telling you it is beyond his capabilities to diagnose/repair, and then billing you anyway, and I don't care to do that to my customers. If they call me with something I know I probably can't do I will tell them they need someone else. Occasionally I may be curious and may come look anyway, but maybe at my own expense if I can't help them.

Then you get things like air conditioning service calls - I try to get some diagnosis from over the phone questions and tell them if I find they likely need refrigerant - I do have some understanding of how all that works, but am not licensed to handle refrigerant and can not do some tasks on the system because of that. But if it sounds like primarily an electrical problem then I tell them I likely can help them.

When it is hot and the HVAC guys are busy they start calling electricians if they can't get an HVAC guy out fast enough to make them happy.:happyyes:
 
kwired said:
Maybe we set too high of standards for "competent" here.

All I know is I am a customer at times as well, and it is no fun having a technician look at something, telling you it is beyond his capabilities to diagnose/repair, and then billing you anyway, and I don't care to do that to my customers. If they call me with something I know I probably can't do I will tell them they need someone else. Occasionally I may be curious and may come look anyway, but maybe at my own expense if I can't help them.

Then you get things like air conditioning service calls - I try to get some diagnosis from over the phone questions and tell them if I find they likely need refrigerant - I do have some understanding of how all that works, but am not licensed to handle refrigerant and can not do some tasks on the system because of that. But if it sounds like primarily an electrical problem then I tell them I likely can help them.

When it is hot and the HVAC guys are busy they start calling electricians if they can't get an HVAC guy out fast enough to make them happy.:happyyes:
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I was my policy not to charge customers unless I found the exact problem, which rarely (in fact I don't ever remember one job I failed to diagnose properly) if ever happened. Sometimes I spent many hours on a job and only charged for one or two, chalking up my unpaid time as on the job training. Fixing the problem was sometimes part of the diagnosis. Other times there would be extra fees, which were agreed to before further work was started. That is a state law here.
 
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K8MHZ said:
I was my policy not to charge customers unless I found the exact problem, which rarely (in fact I don't ever remember one job I failed to diagnose properly) if ever happened. Sometimes I spent many hours on a job and only charged for one or two, chalking up my unpaid time as on the job training. Fixing the problem was sometimes part of the diagnosis. Other times there would be extra fees, which were agreed to before further work was started. That is a state law here.
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But is a different story if it is really hot, they can't get an HVAC guy, and you warn them you may not be able to fix it - depending on what you find. If they tell you to come anyway, they are getting a minimum service charge at the very least, as they knew ahead of time that could happen.
 
kwired said:
But is a different story if it is really hot, they can't get an HVAC guy, and you warn them you may not be able to fix it - depending on what you find. If they tell you to come anyway, they are getting a minimum service charge at the very least, as they knew ahead of time that could happen.
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Understood and not unreasonable.

HVAC really isn't my target market, though.
 
K8MHZ said:
With all the issues of AFCI and GFCI tripping when it seems like they shouldn't, I am wondering if there is enough of it to specialize in it.

I love to troubleshoot. I know that it will take some time to be efficient solving CI trip problems, but I also know that the more years you put in, the fewer hours you have to put in.

To the EC's. If there was a CI fault specialist that was actually good at it, would you call him in, or would you just have your guys try to de-bug it?

Do you think supply houses and box stores would be willing to refer customers to such a specialist?

Do you think the manufacturers would be kind to such a specialist and offer assistance? I ask because I used to to electrical and electronic repairs on cars and the manufacturers were real tight with info. I backward enginnered many systems just so I would have schematics and also did many 'autopsies' on failed devices. I am used to having no factory help. I am also used to having factory help from working on machine control and recording systems. I like it when the factory helps, but don't need them to proceed.

It appears that RFI can be an issue. I hold an Amateur Extra class radio license. 20 years in just one short month. I have been playing with radios for 45 years.

I am used to building my own test equipment.

If there is a fair chance I could make a viable business out of T-shooting CI's, I would put some money into building a 'lab' and having the various brands to experiment with. I worked in R&D for years and that was fun, too.

I lived off doing electrical work on cars for years. The reason was that 90 percent of the mechanics hated doing it, so they sent the stuff to me. I am hoping that 90 percent of the electricians hate chasing AFCI and GFCI faults and would send them to me.

I am not afraid of failing to solve the problems, I am afraid of putting money into something and not get the referrals.

So, do I have a good idea, or a not so good one???
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You have a great idea.

I know a guy who started a business on "leak detection". If it leaks, he can pinpoint it. He's out in Cali and he's been at it 20 years now. To say he's doing great is an understatement. Everything he does is in the field. You can do yours by phone. To think back then that "leak detection" would be full time & prosperous was a long shot.

I suggest looking at what's going to happen when you get into this. Who are your customers, what's it worth to them, etc.

Ultimately I think you're providing both a service and training. Once anyone knows to look at "the ham radio down the street tripping the GFCI's" (or were they AFCI's?) that guy will know to look for a HAM mast before spending money calling you. That's fine. Get his credit card up front, $100 minimum plus $75 per hour for all your time beyond that. Do a pre-approval on his card for $300 and spend all the time he needs with you and him on cell phones while you tell him "go here look for that turn this off and that off and turn things on one by one..." You'd have to get known in the industry. Eventually if it gets big enough you could even have a call center where call takers use an algorithmic manual like the pc support folks do.

Good luck!
 
I think in the real world the AFCI would just be replaced by a standard OCPD before someone would pay for an "expert" to find out why the device is tripping.
 
Is Siemens still pushing that expensive afci fault locator tool that never identifies the breaker itself as the problem? If you do go into this business, that would be a worthwhile tool to keep handy.
 
macmikeman said:
Is Siemens still pushing that expensive afci fault locator tool that never identifies the breaker itself as the problem? If you do go into this business, that would be a worthwhile tool to keep handy.
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Well, I couldn't find any such tool, but it's never the breaker, right?

At least Eaton/CH admits there are issues and are modifying their breakers to work in unfavorable environments.
 
The weirdest GFCI problem I've come across was one that appeared as a short circuit when energized and open when checked with an OHM meter. [Hidden behind a cracked concrete flower pot, large, that the owner didn't want moved for fear it will fall apart.]
 
fmtjfw said:
The weirdest GFCI problem I've come across was one that appeared as a short circuit when energized and open when checked with an OHM meter. [Hidden behind a cracked concrete flower pot, large, that the owner didn't want moved for fear it will fall apart.]
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That is why you need a megohmeter in your arsenal of troubleshooting tools. If you don't apply at least same test voltage as the operational voltage you may never see some of these faults with a "regular" meter.
 
kwired said:
That is why you need a megohmeter in your arsenal of troubleshooting tools. If you don't apply at least same test voltage as the operational voltage you may never see some of these faults with a "regular" meter.
Click to expand...

I have three of them. I also know how to use them. I have two 500 volt models and a 1000 volt, but the 1000 volt is more for show, it's a crank type.
 
kwired said:
That is why you need a megohmeter in your arsenal of troubleshooting tools. If you don't apply at least same test voltage as the operational voltage you may never see some of these faults with a "regular" meter.
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You are right, I should have used my "Megger". My brain just does not associate it with residential. It will in the future. I'd start at the 500V setting.
 
K8MHZ said:
Thank you, Mike.

My computer is so old it doesn't have engines. The power supply is a wind up type, the screen is in black and white and I have to physically turn a knob to change web sites.
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My computer is older than yours. It is steam-powered and I have to get up an hour early just to shovel the coal into the boiler to get up a head of steam.:lol:

Actually I do have some are about 3 years younger than the original IBM PC. My wife's current word processor was built in 1986 (DECMate II).
 
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fmtjfw said:
You are right, I should have used my "Megger". My brain just does not associate it with residential. It will in the future. I'd start at the 500V setting.
Click to expand...

A word to the wise when using meggers in residential.

Make SURE the circuit you are testing has NO devices on it. That is not as easy as it seems when the wiring is hidden in the walls. An electronic device when turned off can show a near open when checked with a DVOM. That same device can be smoked by a 500 volt megger.

I have a DVOM that goes up to 2 megs. I have found every residential fault just using that. I think sparkies are too quick to jump on the megger bandwagon based upon the posts I read here.

Meggers were not really designed to locate faults, although at times they can be handy if a DVOM for some reason doesn't and the fault needs to be forced. Meggers are really designed to test insulation integrity after a pull. Those numbers are recorded and compared to readings taken in the future. Of course, if a reading is too low just after the pull, there is an immediate problem to be addressed.

With more and more electronic devices in homes, the better the chance of a megger smoking one.
 
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K8MHZ said:
A word to the wise when using meggers in residential.

Make SURE the circuit you are testing has NO devices on it. That is not as easy as it seems when the wiring is hidden in the walls. An electronic device when turned off can show a near open when checked with a DVOM. That same device can be smoked by a 500 volt megger.

I have a DVOM that goes up to 2 megs. I have found every residential fault just using that. I think sparkies are too quick to jump on the megger bandwagon based upon the posts I read here.

Meggers were not really designed to locate faults, although at times they can be handy if a DVOM for some reason doesn't and the fault needs to be forced. Meggers are really designed to test insulation integrity after a pull. Those numbers are recorded and compared to readings taken in the future. Of course, if a reading is too low just after the pull, there is an immediate problem to be addressed.

With more and more electronic devices in homes, the better the chance of a megger smoking one.
Click to expand...
I am usually checking things like motors, appliances or underground wiring with them. Disconnect anything that you know of that may not take the test, and only test line to ground or neutral to ground, not line to line or line to neutral - GFCI tripping doesn't respond to those faults anyway.

Also remember surge suppression devices will clamp some of your test voltage if you go to high and they are in the circuit.
 
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