Afci & Gfci questions

[zappy]

I was at a customer's home and they had a afci breaker protecting there bedroom and there balcony outlets outside.So i figured out where the power was coming in to the outside balcony outlets and i put a gfci outlet line and load to protect the other outlet.Well the gfci wouldn't hold.The afci was fine. Question 1.So what does the gfci sense that the afci doesn't?
Question 2.Was it tripping because of the afci?
Question 3.Is there a afci/gfci breaker?
Question 4.I was installing a gfci outlet on a non afci circuit.It was just one cable line in.So as i was pushing the gfci in and screwing it down and it tripped.How does it trip on the line side of the outlet?The breaker never trip.So i taped up the wires and made sure nothing was touching each other and it held.I thought it just protected anything on the load side only but i guess not.Thank you for your help and happy holidays.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

1. GFCIs [Class A] are more sensitive than AFCIs [Class B]
2. most likely not, but not enough info
3.No, AFCIs do have Class B GFP protection - not for personnel, but for equipment. They trip at a higher amperage value, usually from 20-50 miliamps, depending on the setting by the manufacturer
4. You may have made incidental contact with a grounded conductor and an equipment ground conductor as you pushed it back in the box - was this an NM cable installation?

 

[mdshunk]

Question 1.So what does the gfci sense that the afci doesn't?

Ground faults greater than 5-6ma and less than ~30ma.

Question 2.Was it tripping because of the afci?

No way. Urban myth.

Question 3.Is there a afci/gfci breaker?

Yes, but due to slacking sales, they're not making them any more. There's lots of new old stock around, though.

Question 4.I was installing a gfci outlet on a non afci circuit.It was just one cable line in.So as i was pushing the gfci in and screwing it down and it tripped.How does it trip on the line side of the outlet?The breaker never trip.So i taped up the wires and made sure nothing was touching each other and it held.I thought it just protected anything on the load side only but i guess not.Thank you for your help and happy holidays.

Probably got the neutral screw or conductor against the grounded metal box. They sense that.


In your original question, I'd say you have a low-level ground fault on the little bit of cable going from that new indoor GFCI receptacle to the balcony receptacle, or the balcony receptacle is so damp inside that it's got a low level fault. Take the balcony receptacle apart, clean out all the crap in the box, replace the receptacle, and try it again. If no help, time to break out the megger.

 

[zappy]

???

???

So i guess anything on the line side or the load side can make a gfci outlet trip?

 

[macmikeman]

Zappy, any brief connection from neutral to the equipment ground wire will trip most Afci breakers. With a sustained connection like a ground wire in contact with the neutral screws on a receptacle outlet, the breaker won't set in the first place.

 

[GUNNING]

Huh?

Huh?

If a AFCI protected circuit that has a GFP component, when you install and press the test button on a GFCI receptacle on that circuit will it trip a AFCI breaker? OR if you test the AFCI breaker will it trip the GFCI receptacle?

 

[macmikeman]

If a AFCI protected circuit that has a GFP component, when you install and press the test button on a GFCI receptacle on that circuit will it trip a AFCI breaker? OR if you test the AFCI breaker will it trip the GFCI receptacle?

Not if the breaker device is properly functioning. Afci breakers incorporate ground fault protection, but the level is set at roughly 5 times higher than a gfci device. Testing the gfi by using the test button will not normally trip an afci breaker, and also the vice versa, testing an afci breaker by using the test button will not normally trip a gfci device downstream in the circuit.

 

[GUNNING]

Toopid question #2

Toopid question #2

Is the AFCI breaker with GFP a substitute for GFCI protection in Kitchen and bathroom circuits?

 

[quogueelectric]

I suspect you have a problem from the br to the balcony. If this were a ground wire to neutral before the gfci it would trip the afci also so I believe it is on the short piece of wire to the balcony. What is perplexing me is why you put the gfci in the house ? why didnt you just go outside with the ckt and put a gfci receptacle outside feeding the line side??

 

[zappy]

I suspect you have a problem from the br to the balcony. If this were a ground wire to neutral before the gfci it would trip the afci also so I believe it is on the short piece of wire to the balcony. What is perplexing me is why you put the gfci in the house ? why didnt you just go outside with the ckt and put a gfci receptacle outside feeding the line side??

I didn't wire this house.I was just advising the customer he needed gfci protection for the 2 outlets outside on his balcony.He agreed so i added a gfci outlet to one and it protected the other,
but it wouldn't hold,so i told him the balcony outlets really don't need to be on the afci breaker,and that it might be tripping the gfci outlet.But from what i'm hearing that isn't the case.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Is the AFCI breaker with GFP a substitute for GFCI protection in Kitchen and bathroom circuits?

No. AFCIs are set at approx. 30 mA, and GFCIs are set at 5 mA.