AFCI & GFCI

[bthielen]

I understand that AFCI protection is required for all bedroom receptacles. If I build a bathroom addition off the bedroom and wire the bathroom lighting circuit by tapping off of the bedrooom, how would you recommend I provide GFCI protection for the bathroom lighting circuit, assuming I need it for an exhaust fan in the shower area? The bedroom circuit is already supplied by a 20A AFCI circuit breaker.

My first thought is to install a GFCI receptacle in the bedroom (there is a receptacle in a very handy location)where I tap off to supply the bathroom and then it could protect the bathroom lighting load. Does this sound like a reasonable solution, or will I have problems using a GFCI in conjunction with the AFCI circuit?

Incidentally, the 20A circuit is currently only supplying the bedroom so I thought I'd save some work and expense by tapping off the bedroom instead of running a whole new circuit just for a bathroom fan/light.

Thanks,

Bob

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Originally posted by bthielen: Incidentally, the 20A circuit is currently only supplying the bedroom so I thought I'd save some work and expense by tapping off the bedroom instead of running a whole new circuit just for a bathroom fan/light.

I don?t think you can do that. The circuit that serves the bathroom receptacle can have no other outlet (i.e., it can?t also serve the bedroom). Even if that circuit started its career by serving the bedroom, it cannot be extended into the bathroom without 210.11(C)(3) getting in the way.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

210.11(C)(3)adresses only receptacle outlets in the bathroom, not lighting/utilization equipment outlets. I think as long as the circuit you speak of does not touch a bathroom receptacle, you will be fine.

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

AFCI with downstream GFCI recpt will function fine from an electrical POV. I've done this many times with no problems.

The light/fan can come from a BR branch.

 

[charlie b]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

I misread the question ? thought you were talking about receptacles. A thousand apologies.

 

[alex winkler]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Some manufactures make Combination AFCI/GFCIs. It will perform both the AFCI and the GFCI (4 to 6 ma) function. Cutler Hammer makes several, cat # BR120AFGF, CH120AFGF

 

[bthielen]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Thanks a bunch. You've answered my question.

Bob

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

A word of advice when using the combo AFCI/GFCI. As of the last time I spoke with the manufacturers, there still is no indication of whether the breaker has tripped because of arc fault or ground fault. Because of this I would be reluctant to install the combo type if not required by code, because trouble shooting could be more extensive. I guess it would depend on how you are being paid after the installation.
I am not saying do or don't install the combo units, just be aware so you can make a decision that suits how you will be paid for your time.

Pierre

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Pierre,
I'm not sure that the troubleshooting would be any different. The standard AFCI has a 30 to 50 mA ground fault trip in it. In my opinion, it is this ground fault trip that will actually open the circuit most of the time. This is true even on so called arcing faults. Most "false trips" of AFCIs have been traced to accidental grounded to grounding connections on the AFCI protected circuit.
Don

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Don There is no differance in the trouble shooting. All they do is instead of useing a 30ma. coil they use a 5ma. coil, if you go to Cuttler Hammers web site it shows it this way. with a 5ma. pickup there would be no need for a 30ma. pickup this would be like putting a 5 amp breaker in series with a 15 amp breaker to service a 3 amp load.

Cutlett Hammer AFCI'S

[ December 09, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

After looking at CH's web site I seen they list the combo AFCI/GFCI @$178.00 OUCH!!! I think I would find a cheaper way to do this job.

 

[tonyi]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

The local supply house I usually use sells the 15/20A Cutler AFGF (BR flavor) for around $40. Not much worse than an ordinary AF breaker with a downstream GFCI receptical cost wise and its less effort to wire up.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Did i miss something.He will still need to make a home run to the panel or other bath recepticle to get his receptical for the bath room.If this is a home run why not just go to the gfci recept in bath first then on load side add lights and fan.This is a remodel so im not sure what the other bath recepticles are on,might be old house and on 20 amp lighting circuit so can't tap of it

 

[ted sr.]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

jim is right but why are the lights/fans on the
load, as long as the circuit doesn't feed anything
but that bath the lts and rec can share the circuit but the lts don't need to be on the load
incase of a fault you're not in the dark...

 

[racraft]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

He can possibly grab the outlet power from another bathroom, if that other bathroom's outlet (and perhaps even other bathrooms' outlets) are the only thing(s) on the circuit.

Of course better not put too many bathroom outlets on a circuit, especially if you have teenage girls around.

 

[pierre]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

What I meant about the difference in trouble shooting is, when you normally wire a bathroom, it is with a GFCI receptacle. IF the GFCI receptacle trips, you know it is the receptacle.

Now one installs an Arc Fault breaker, and it trips. Did it trip on Arc Fault, Ground Fault or short circuit or overload? I would say that the troubleshooting on an Arc Fault breaker requires more work than a GFCI receptacle, and that is what I meant.

When someone calls me and says their bathroom receptacle does not work, I bring my tester, a screwdriver and a spare GFCI receptacle, knowing pretty much it may be the receptacle.
Someone calls me when the Arc Fault breaker has tripped, I bring my .....

Which would you rather troubleshoot?

Pierre

[ December 12, 2003, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Pierre
The problems that cause a AFCI to trip are the same problems that will cause a GFCI to trip this is also true in reverse. The problem is there is no indication on any AFCI breakers that will tell you if the fault was a arc or a GFP problem. but since the AFCI uses the same current coil that the GFCI uses and that the coil serves the same purpose in both. the same trouble shooting techniques will apply. as there is no way to know if the breaker was tripped by a arc. The three things that trip a GFCI are hot to ground current, neutral to ground current, or the wrong neutral is used for the circuit. These are also the same three causes of a AFCI circuit to trip. the only difference is the GFP (30ma) in the AFCI requires a load to be applied before it will trip. this happens when you go to turn a bedroom light on and the AFCI trips. On the GFCI the very low 4 to 5ma. is low enough to cause the GFCI to trip without a load. Trying to determine if the AFCI was tripped by a arc would be almost imposable unless you had a way to look at every inch of wire to see the burned spot. It would be a good addition to the AFCI breaker if they did have this type of indication that would let you know when it tripped on a arc, but other wise there is now way to know.

[ December 12, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: AFCI & GFCI

Only reason i said put light and fan on load sise was to simplify the 2 gang switch box. But yes if you can keep the wires straight keep the light om the line side so you can find the reset.I really don't see the ruling on the fan just because its in the shower,but rules are rules