AFCI/GFIC, Combination AFCI Breaker Aplications in Kitchens - 2014 NEC

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mxlplx00

Member
Location
Watsonville, California
Occupation
Electrician
Hello,
I'm confused. 210.12(A) has 6 options of which only (1) make any since to me but never mind that for now.

So 210.12(A)(1) wants a Combination AFCI breakers for all of the 15 and 20 branch circuits. And 210.8 wants GFIC protection on countertops, dishwasher (I assume the garbage disposal kind of goes along in this) and the fridge if within 6 feet.

So AFCI's detect parallel faults and Combination AFCI detect parallel and series faults. I have a kitchen remodel that I'm doing and it seems like they don't make Combination AFCI/GFIC breakers (Murry). Before I really started thinking about this I was going to install AFCI/GFIC breakers but I guess that this is nor correct. So would the proper application be to install Combination AFCI breakers for all the kitchen 20 & 15 branch circuits and then also install GFIC receptacles on the first box in the countertop, Garbage/Dishwasher and refrigerator?

This seems a little extreme. Assuming your answer is going to be yes. LOL. I spend $45 each for 3 countertop, 2 small appliance and a lighting for AFCI breakers and then another $20 each on GFIC receptacles for 3 countertop, and 2 small appliance? That's $270 for breakers and $100 in GFIC's.

Questions:
What do they do if the GFIC behind the fridge trips? Will the garbage disposal cause nuisance tripping of the AFCI?. The oven exhaust fan is on the fridge circuit and is very old, surely worn brushes on this thing will trip the AFCI.

Also in your practical experience, is there any commonly allowed leeway on this? I mean AFCI/GFIC all around sounds fine to me. And for the garbage disposal and exhaust fan I could put them on dedicated or together on a circuit but that seems like a big waste for wire and space in the panel.

I guess I should call the city and see what they want. I'd hate to spend $400 on breakers that I can't return and have to buy them again.

Thanks
Marc
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Put the AFCI & GFCI where they need to be. Replace the appliances if they trip the devices or CB. They are faulty. If your exhaust fan has brushes it is beyond old. Never heard of or saw one that has them.

Keep the receipts and return them in original packaging, unused. Never had a problem doing this but I do not make a habit of it with my suppliers.

Welcome to the real world and charge your customer for these items. They should not cost you anything. You should even make a bit. Then again if this is a DIY project, Live with it.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
Hello,
I'm confused. 210.12(A) has 6 options of which only (1) make any since to me but never mind that for now.

So 210.12(A)(1) wants a Combination AFCI breakers for all of the 15 and 20 branch circuits. And 210.8 wants GFIC protection on countertops, dishwasher (I assume the garbage disposal kind of goes along in this) and the fridge if within 6 feet.

So AFCI's detect parallel faults and Combination AFCI detect parallel and series faults. I have a kitchen remodel that I'm doing and it seems like they don't make Combination AFCI/GFIC breakers (Murry). Before I really started thinking about this I was going to install AFCI/GFIC breakers but I guess that this is nor correct. So would the proper application be to install Combination AFCI breakers for all the kitchen 20 & 15 branch circuits and then also install GFIC receptacles on the first box in the countertop, Garbage/Dishwasher and refrigerator?

This seems a little extreme. Assuming your answer is going to be yes. LOL. I spend $45 each for 3 countertop, 2 small appliance and a lighting for AFCI breakers and then another $20 each on GFIC receptacles for 3 countertop, and 2 small appliance? That's $270 for breakers and $100 in GFIC's.

Questions:
What do they do if the GFIC behind the fridge trips? Will the garbage disposal cause nuisance tripping of the AFCI?. The oven exhaust fan is on the fridge circuit and is very old, surely worn brushes on this thing will trip the AFCI.

Also in your practical experience, is there any commonly allowed leeway on this? I mean AFCI/GFIC all around sounds fine to me. And for the garbage disposal and exhaust fan I could put them on dedicated or together on a circuit but that seems like a big waste for wire and space in the panel.

I guess I should call the city and see what they want. I'd hate to spend $400 on breakers that I can't return and have to buy them again.

Thanks
Marc

You are getting terminologies mixed up. A combination AFCI breaker is one that (supposedly) detects both parallel and series arcs. It is not a GFCI/AFCI combined breaker. Though if you do need the AFCI it must be a combination AFCI. If you're buying it new it will be a combo as the old ones without series and parallel aren't allowed or made anymore.

What you want/need is called a "dual function" AFCI. It does have both AFCI and GFCI in one breaker. So anywhere that requires both GFCI and AFCI the dual function is what you want. They are only 3 or 4$ more than either a stand alone AFCI or GFCI. I have even found them to be cheaper in some brands.
 

mxlplx00

Member
Location
Watsonville, California
Occupation
Electrician
Oh man, you guys are the best. I'm a little slow sometimes so thanks for helping me get my head strait.

<ptonsparky > "return them in original packaging, unused"
I'm buying them at Costco for $40 in a sealed plastic hanger. I was afraid that they wouldn't take opened AFCI's back because you could just smoke them and make the store eat the loss. But I haven't tried that yet.

"Welcome to the real world and charge your customer for these items"
" Replace the appliances if they trip the devices or CB."
Makes sense. Thanks

======================

<Little Bill> "A combination AFCI breaker is one that (supposedly) detects both parallel and series arcs."
"What you want/need is called a "dual function" AFCI"
That's what I was trying to say.

"the old ones without series and parallel aren't allowed or made anymore"
Now this is where I was really mixed up. Now it makes sense that they are now discontinued.


I thought they were still selling AFCI breakers that were not combination (detect conductor fault to ground). And because all the AFCI/GFIC Dual Function breakers that I was seeing didn't state that they were also Combination I assumed that these breakers (because I'm a "little" slow) did not detect faults to ground.

Well in my defense the ones that are not Dual Function (not GFIC) are labeled "Single-pole Combination AFCI breaker" so I naturally assumed that the breaker that I need will be labeled "Combination/Dual Function AFCI Circuit breaker".

homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Circuit-Breakers-1-Pole-Breakers/Murray/20/N-5yc1vZbm3aZ758Z1z0u3fe

Now I bought a Dual Function AFCI/GFCI breaker before I got all panicky about this. So I went out to the garage and read the package. It says that it detects "line-to-neutral, line-to-ground and series arcs!"

So sometimes I can't see the hand in front of my face.

Thanks for the help guys.
Marc
 
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