AFCI in an outbuilding on a residential property.

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Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
Are AFCI required in a detached garage on a residential property with a work space above. The work space is an open room, no clothes closets in the room. There is a utility closet accessed from the room and a bathroom. There is no cooking space in the structure.
There is a wet bar with coffee maker, ice and sink. No Micro wave or cooking appliances.
 
ptonsparky

ptonsparky

Tom
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
Rex Hungerford said:
Are AFCI required in a detached garage on a residential property with a work space above. The work space is an open room, no clothes closets in the room. There is a utility closet accessed from the room and a bathroom. There is no cooking space in the structure.
There is a wet bar with coffee maker, ice and sink. No Micro wave or cooking appliances.
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Doesn't sound like a residence or a dorm room, etc to me. As of now, IMO, no they are not required.

I would ask the HO if they want the added protection. I can see it being used as a guest bedroom and in that case Smokes. What ifs can go on and on though.
 
R

Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
ptonsparky said:
Doesn't sound like a residence or a dorm room, etc to me. As of now, IMO, no they are not required.

I would ask the HO if they want the added protection. I can see it being used as a guest bedroom and in that case Smokes. What ifs can go on and on though.
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I am a consultant to the owner. I am an electrician since 1995 and an administrator. I own a business in one state but consult for others. I am being told by the contractor in another state the code says they are required. It matters in that the equipment I specify is based upon a Eaton panel with Bolt on Breakers. A bolt on QB1020 CAF are about $400 a piece. The homeowner is being told he has to have them.

This matters in that I want to make sure I understand the code so I don't bump into this in other states and not really understand the code myself. 2010.12 seems pretty clear when it calls out Dwelling Unit. Article 100 Definitions is also clear. But then again, I see a whole lot of detached accessory bedroom with bathroom going in that would in my mind benefit from an AFCI. Its a bit of an ambiguous code.

Interesting point on smoke alarms. I don't see them in the plan. So what is the space.
 
R

Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
The question is about interpreting 2020 NEC 210.12. I want to make sure I am not being ignorant. I find it is a little vague, but I am open to seeing the requirement as applying to any structure on a residential property.
I have told my client his best option is to call the local permitting office and ask, or request a walk through.

I am appreciative of the comment about the smoke detector. I have also advised my client they should verify the requirement so they don't get missed and drywall come down later.
 
R

Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
James L said:
I would think it's considered an ADU - Accessory Dwelling Unit

Read this article to get a feel. It includes something as simple as an office in the back yard

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An ADU has sleeping, bathing and cooking. There is another structure name for a space that is only sleeping and bathing. In WA we have ALQ or Accessory Living Quarters. Basically a place to put your annoying high school child. The NEC will probably have to catch up with terminology to make the requirement more clear.
 
James L

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
Rex Hungerford said:
An ADU has sleeping, bathing and cooking. There is another structure name for a space that is only sleeping and bathing. In WA we have ALQ or Accessory Living Quarters. Basically a place to put your annoying high school child. The NEC will probably have to catch up with terminology to make the requirement more clear.
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I've wired a number of ADUs here in the KCMO area. In two municipalities they were not allowed to have cooking provision in an ADU above a detached garage.

But Fannie Mae requires all that you've noted for ADU

You're right, it needs to be clarified.
 
R

Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
James L said:
I've wired a number of ADUs here in the KCMO area. In two municipalities they were not allowed to have cooking provision in an ADU above a detached garage.

But Fannie Mae requires all that you've noted for ADU

You're right, it needs to be clarified.
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And to make it more vague, it may start as a media entertainment room, but 10 years later, its a bedroom.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Rex Hungerford said:
And to make it more vague, it may start as a media entertainment room, but 10 years later, its a bedroom.
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I've seen spaces that started as garages and 10 years later are basically media entertainment rooms though they still have the overhead door(s). Still may or may not have a vehicle parked in them at times. If so might be some classic restored car. This room is never a utility type area it is a party room as well as a storage room for the classic car.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Rex Hungerford said:
An ADU has sleeping, bathing and cooking. There is another structure name for a space that is only sleeping and bathing. In WA we have ALQ or Accessory Living Quarters. Basically a place to put your annoying high school child. The NEC will probably have to catch up with terminology to make the requirement more clear.
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Does it? 210.12(A) lists certain room types, then follows those with "or similar rooms or areas".

If anything they just need to change 210.12(A) title from "Dwelling units" to somehow include similar areas located on dwelling properties.

I could also see somehow incorporating similar areas on non dwelling places like camps, recreation areas etc that have bunkhouses or similar sleeping rooms whether within a single structure or as individual structures. Those spaces might be a little questionable as is worded now whether to consider them dormitory areas or guest rooms per 210.12 (B) and (C), but is still similar in use/function as areas that currently require AFCI protection.

I say this even though I am for the most part anti AFCI, can you believe that?
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Seven-Delta-FortyOne

Goin’ Down In Flames........
Location
Humboldt
Occupation
EC and GC
In my area, they are called ”detached bedrooms”.

No cooking facilities, bathroom is optional.

If that’s what they’re calling it, then AFCI is going to be required.

You could save some money by not spec’ing bolt on’s. 😬
 
tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Anyone remember 'pushmatic' or bulldog loadcenters? They a were bolt on upper end residential loadcenter. I have never seen one newer than perhaps the early 60's though.
 
R

Rex Hungerford

Member
Location
Seattle
Occupation
Electrician
I hope this is not too stupid a question. What is the difference between a CAFI and AFCI. Does an AFCI not have a thermal/mag element and is only Arc protection?
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Rex Hungerford said:
I hope this is not too stupid a question. What is the difference between a CAFI and AFCI. Does an AFCI not have a thermal/mag element and is only Arc protection?
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CAFCI are devices that are said to detect and clear both series and parallel arcing faults. The original AFCIs were branch circuit and feeder AFCIs. The combination AFCIs have been required starting with the 2011 code. Note this is not to be confused with a dual function AFCI which provides combination AFCI protection and GFCI protection.
 
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