AFCI Law Suits
- Thread starter bennie
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Bennie: As always thanks for your post. When you say that 3 states have dropped the NEC for enforcement, do you mean the entire code? If so, do you know what they are using to regulate electrical installations?
Bennie: As always thanks for your post. When you say that 3 states have dropped the NEC for enforcement, do you mean the entire code? If so, do you know what they are using to regulate electrical installations?
phil c
Member
- Location
- New Jersey
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Bennie: Here in NJ the dep't of community affairs(DCA)hsd made the installation of the AFCI "optional" for its installation by the homeowner or by the Architect
Bennie: Here in NJ the dep't of community affairs(DCA)hsd made the installation of the AFCI "optional" for its installation by the homeowner or by the Architect
romex jockey
Senior Member
- Location
- Vermont
- Occupation
- electrician
Re: AFCI Law Suits
gee, this wouldn't have anything to do with George Zlan's concerns would it?
anybody else catch NEC digest, i think it was the Feb issue, Marchand and Dini (presently poppin' bottles of chardonnay at @ century a wack with CMP-2) .....some article about the 'TRUTH ON AFCI's'
hey you know the drill folks, class action suits don't happen if the public is warned do they???
gives one the warm fuzzies to thing we in our lowly trade rates our own Ken Lay's eh?
gee, this wouldn't have anything to do with George Zlan's concerns would it?
boy, it sure does seem that there was an awful lotta questions left unanswered before the '02 huh?
anybody else catch NEC digest, i think it was the Feb issue, Marchand and Dini (presently poppin' bottles of chardonnay at @ century a wack with CMP-2) .....some article about the 'TRUTH ON AFCI's'
hey you know the drill folks, class action suits don't happen if the public is warned do they???
gives one the warm fuzzies to thing we in our lowly trade rates our own Ken Lay's eh?
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Series arcs are intrinsically load limited, therefor they don't get very hot and are the least dangerous type arc in terms of igniting something. That an AFCI can't detect them doesn't strike me as too big a deal. The whole idea is to prevent those scenarios where (sustainable) ignition is possible. In this regard, current AFCI's work.
I wonder how low amp series detection could effectively be implemented in a residential environment anyway without causing nuisance trips on things like switch bounce or appliances where their switch makes marginal contact.
IMO, its like the never ending airbag/seatbelt debate. Statistically you're better off with'em than without'em. Are they "perfect"? Nope, but they'll save a few thousand people a year. The glass is half full here, not half empty ;->
If someone doesn't think AFCI's are a worthwhile advance in the technology, then I invite them to move their family into a place full of old 2-wire NM, no GFCI's, a 60A fuse box, and bask in the glory and safety of "proven technology" <g>
Series arcs are intrinsically load limited, therefor they don't get very hot and are the least dangerous type arc in terms of igniting something. That an AFCI can't detect them doesn't strike me as too big a deal. The whole idea is to prevent those scenarios where (sustainable) ignition is possible. In this regard, current AFCI's work.
I wonder how low amp series detection could effectively be implemented in a residential environment anyway without causing nuisance trips on things like switch bounce or appliances where their switch makes marginal contact.
IMO, its like the never ending airbag/seatbelt debate. Statistically you're better off with'em than without'em. Are they "perfect"? Nope, but they'll save a few thousand people a year. The glass is half full here, not half empty ;->
If someone doesn't think AFCI's are a worthwhile advance in the technology, then I invite them to move their family into a place full of old 2-wire NM, no GFCI's, a 60A fuse box, and bask in the glory and safety of "proven technology" <g>
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI Law Suits
tonyi I felt the way you did till I started to learn more about these devices.
It looks like we have been lied to and misinformed by the manufacturers of these devices.
To me it may be worth the cost to take the gamble that these things will help, but I will not take it blindly on faith that they will do all they are claimed to.
Many locality's are droping the requirements for AFCIs, why do you think that is?
tonyi I felt the way you did till I started to learn more about these devices.
It looks like we have been lied to and misinformed by the manufacturers of these devices.
To me it may be worth the cost to take the gamble that these things will help, but I will not take it blindly on faith that they will do all they are claimed to.
Many locality's are droping the requirements for AFCIs, why do you think that is?
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Tony, please explain this,
Take an arcing bridge in series behind a flammable curtain (loose plug) and tell me it is less likely to cause a fire than the very rare parallel arc.
Roger
Tony, please explain this,
or at least where you read this.
Take an arcing bridge in series behind a flammable curtain (loose plug) and tell me it is less likely to cause a fire than the very rare parallel arc.
Roger
Re: AFCI Law Suits
I have seen where fires were started at receptacles when using the terminals to complete the circuit, and one terminal loosens. This ignited wall panelling.
The arc intensity depends on the load. This incident was caused by Christmas lights down stream from this receptacle.
A welding machine arc is a series arc to ground. Not exactly the same as an inline arc, but it is an indication of heat created.
I have seen where fires were started at receptacles when using the terminals to complete the circuit, and one terminal loosens. This ignited wall panelling.
The arc intensity depends on the load. This incident was caused by Christmas lights down stream from this receptacle.
A welding machine arc is a series arc to ground. Not exactly the same as an inline arc, but it is an indication of heat created.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Series arcs are an interesting thing.
A few months back, I found myself being asked to provide a burned up connection at a terminal screw on a device for a photograph to be included in a magazine article about why good connections are important.
I went to a photo studio with a simple cord & plug connected electric heater, 1,200 watt, and the parts to mock up a 15 amp 120 volt duplex receptacle in a fake drywall wall. I made the outlet look real with romex fed into the box, the receptacle as if it had just been openned up for examination, hanging out from the wall surface a few inches. I left the neutral screw just loose enough so it was just touching the copper conductor.
I powered the other end of the romex from an extension cord plugged into a regular studio outlet. I plugged in the heater to my fake outlet, turned it on, and tweaked the loose neutral screw until I saw the first spark.
It was fascinating. This series arc was the tiniest little pin point of a light just as sharp and white as a halogen bulb, and it wandered around. It would apparently disappear and show up a few seconds later, again and again. Within seconds a slender smoke trail rose, and within a few minutes the screw was blackened and the insulation on the conductor was bubbling an inch up from the screw.
We had what we needed for the photo and didn't go further. What impressed me was how quick the temperatures spiked.
In the real world the OCPD will not trip, and, as far as can be accertained, even the AFCI doesn't detect this until things burn up enough for a ground fault to occur. . .
Series arcs are an interesting thing.
A few months back, I found myself being asked to provide a burned up connection at a terminal screw on a device for a photograph to be included in a magazine article about why good connections are important.
I went to a photo studio with a simple cord & plug connected electric heater, 1,200 watt, and the parts to mock up a 15 amp 120 volt duplex receptacle in a fake drywall wall. I made the outlet look real with romex fed into the box, the receptacle as if it had just been openned up for examination, hanging out from the wall surface a few inches. I left the neutral screw just loose enough so it was just touching the copper conductor.
I powered the other end of the romex from an extension cord plugged into a regular studio outlet. I plugged in the heater to my fake outlet, turned it on, and tweaked the loose neutral screw until I saw the first spark.
It was fascinating. This series arc was the tiniest little pin point of a light just as sharp and white as a halogen bulb, and it wandered around. It would apparently disappear and show up a few seconds later, again and again. Within seconds a slender smoke trail rose, and within a few minutes the screw was blackened and the insulation on the conductor was bubbling an inch up from the screw.
We had what we needed for the photo and didn't go further. What impressed me was how quick the temperatures spiked.
In the real world the OCPD will not trip, and, as far as can be accertained, even the AFCI doesn't detect this until things burn up enough for a ground fault to occur. . .
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Roger,
Unlike a parallel arc (ex. NM stapled down too hard, or a badly pinched lamp cord), without load there is no series arc happening at all since there is no current on the break (i.e. no load = no arc).
With load, the most that can be drawn across a series arc is what the device itself is capable of drawing when it is running full blast. Imagine a temp pigtail lampholder with a busted pigtail causing a series arc in a lead - clearly the most you get out of that arc is directly related to the size bulb in the lampholder.
A series arc in the lead cord of a 1500W heater running full blast would be considerably more amps (and generated heat) than a series arc from say an aquarium bubbler with a bad lead cord.
Arc generated heat is related directly to available arc amps - this is why you can't weld worth a damn with the phone company's wires
, but you can with a Lincoln welder. For an arc, Amps=Heat.
It IS absolutely true that many series arcs would have to fizzle for a long time and cause enough damage that a parallel arc or GF develops before they're detected.
Obviously any arc under perfect conditions (laying in flash paper perhaps?), even brief tiny one could start a fire. The whole concept of the AFCI isn't about absolutes, its more about playing percentages.
Contained series arcs, even high powered ones (ex. loose receptical screw) have several chances to eventually trip an AFCI before the place burns down. They can develop into parallel's - the insulation can melt to the point there's a hot/neutral parallel arc (no longer load limited), they can develop into a neutral/gnd or hot/gnd GF.
The idea behind contained series arcs is the crap that contains them, even plastic boxes with plastic covers is supposed to be able to withstand a fair amount of hot crap for at least a little while before completely catching fire itself. Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire.
IMO, imperfect as they may be, the bottom line is - are you safer with them, or without them? They're cheaper than the cheapest funeral, and a lot cheaper than repairing a burnout.
I also think a lot of the complaints are due to sloppy box stuffing resulting in bootleg grounds then blaming the device. I bet if Romex were required to have an insulated gnd wire, a lot of these supposed false trips would vanish...because we're never going to get the people doing schlock to stop doing schlock.
Roger,
Unlike a parallel arc (ex. NM stapled down too hard, or a badly pinched lamp cord), without load there is no series arc happening at all since there is no current on the break (i.e. no load = no arc).
With load, the most that can be drawn across a series arc is what the device itself is capable of drawing when it is running full blast. Imagine a temp pigtail lampholder with a busted pigtail causing a series arc in a lead - clearly the most you get out of that arc is directly related to the size bulb in the lampholder.
A series arc in the lead cord of a 1500W heater running full blast would be considerably more amps (and generated heat) than a series arc from say an aquarium bubbler with a bad lead cord.
Arc generated heat is related directly to available arc amps - this is why you can't weld worth a damn with the phone company's wires
, but you can with a Lincoln welder. For an arc, Amps=Heat.It IS absolutely true that many series arcs would have to fizzle for a long time and cause enough damage that a parallel arc or GF develops before they're detected.
Obviously any arc under perfect conditions (laying in flash paper perhaps?), even brief tiny one could start a fire. The whole concept of the AFCI isn't about absolutes, its more about playing percentages.
Contained series arcs, even high powered ones (ex. loose receptical screw) have several chances to eventually trip an AFCI before the place burns down. They can develop into parallel's - the insulation can melt to the point there's a hot/neutral parallel arc (no longer load limited), they can develop into a neutral/gnd or hot/gnd GF.
The idea behind contained series arcs is the crap that contains them, even plastic boxes with plastic covers is supposed to be able to withstand a fair amount of hot crap for at least a little while before completely catching fire itself. Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire.
IMO, imperfect as they may be, the bottom line is - are you safer with them, or without them? They're cheaper than the cheapest funeral, and a lot cheaper than repairing a burnout.
I also think a lot of the complaints are due to sloppy box stuffing resulting in bootleg grounds then blaming the device. I bet if Romex were required to have an insulated gnd wire, a lot of these supposed false trips would vanish...because we're never going to get the people doing schlock to stop doing schlock.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
When I said "Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire."
I meant to say:
Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire before an AFCI has a chance to trip .
When I said "Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire."
I meant to say:
Scaring a screw and melting a couple of inches of insulation, while certainly not a good thing, is also not enough to completely torch up a receptical and set the whole box and its cover on fire before an AFCI has a chance to trip .
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Tony,
On a glowing connection there can be enough heat produced to start a fire before the AFCI reacts. The AFCI can only react when the heat at the connection melts enough insulation to cause a ground fault or parallel fault. A glowing connection can be produced with as little as a 100 watt load, this heat is not produced by an arc as a series arc is almost impossible to sustain and produces little heat, but a glowing connection is caused by the high resistance of the connection and the resistance goes up over time creating more watts of heat at the connection with the same load. This is even more true if an AFCI is being used to protect old knob and tube wiring because those conductors are too far apart to create a parallel arcing fault and there is no EGC for a ground fault.
Are we safer with them? Yes. But not any where as near as safe as the AFCI manufacturers want us to believe.
In all of the fire loss studies that were used to prove the need for AFCIs, 85% of the fires occured in homes over 20 years old. How likely is it that the AFCI will still be functional in 20 years?
Don
Tony,
On a glowing connection there can be enough heat produced to start a fire before the AFCI reacts. The AFCI can only react when the heat at the connection melts enough insulation to cause a ground fault or parallel fault. A glowing connection can be produced with as little as a 100 watt load, this heat is not produced by an arc as a series arc is almost impossible to sustain and produces little heat, but a glowing connection is caused by the high resistance of the connection and the resistance goes up over time creating more watts of heat at the connection with the same load. This is even more true if an AFCI is being used to protect old knob and tube wiring because those conductors are too far apart to create a parallel arcing fault and there is no EGC for a ground fault.
Are we safer with them? Yes. But not any where as near as safe as the AFCI manufacturers want us to believe.
In all of the fire loss studies that were used to prove the need for AFCIs, 85% of the fires occured in homes over 20 years old. How likely is it that the AFCI will still be functional in 20 years?
Don
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Bob,
Product literature by its nature has to simplify things that aren't necessarily simple so people can catch the drift of something fast without spending many hours reading detailed technical reports on how it really works.
I spent many hours pouring through all the available detailed technical stuff and performance data on these when they came out. All the stuff being whined about now is/was known back then and fairly well stated at that - its not new news. I've seen bad arc damage in older places I've worked on and seen AFCI's I've put in trip and locate issues that would otherwise have gone unnoticed.
I think there's things that could be done that would dramatically increase the device's effectivness - like making everything have a grounded plug. Even things like christmas lights where the ground wire would be unused. Just the presense of the ground wire, even though perhaps unused by the devices gives an AFCI a chance to trip on a GF as arc damage progresses. Lacking the ground, you're stuck waiting for a high amp parallel to develop as a series might not be enough. Using metal boxes would go a long way towards helping a GF trip occur before an arcing receptical progresses to a dangerous level. I'll admit to being a metal box proponent, always have been, always will be ..and the counter guys always look at me funny when I ask for steel MC or AC too.
Bob,
Product literature by its nature has to simplify things that aren't necessarily simple so people can catch the drift of something fast without spending many hours reading detailed technical reports on how it really works.
I spent many hours pouring through all the available detailed technical stuff and performance data on these when they came out. All the stuff being whined about now is/was known back then and fairly well stated at that - its not new news. I've seen bad arc damage in older places I've worked on and seen AFCI's I've put in trip and locate issues that would otherwise have gone unnoticed.
I think there's things that could be done that would dramatically increase the device's effectivness - like making everything have a grounded plug. Even things like christmas lights where the ground wire would be unused. Just the presense of the ground wire, even though perhaps unused by the devices gives an AFCI a chance to trip on a GF as arc damage progresses. Lacking the ground, you're stuck waiting for a high amp parallel to develop as a series might not be enough. Using metal boxes would go a long way towards helping a GF trip occur before an arcing receptical progresses to a dangerous level. I'll admit to being a metal box proponent, always have been, always will be
..and the counter guys always look at me funny when I ask for steel MC or AC too.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Don, baring lightning damage, I fully expect an AFCI to be functional in 20 years. Embedded micros are tough. Do 20 year old GFCI breakers still work? Seriously, I worry more about failed mechanicals in the trip mechanism - its still hard to beat the stupid simplicity of a fuse for opening a circuit on an overload
Cars have had computers under the hoods for decades now doing all sorts of various tasks and that's a lot harsher environment than in a indoor residential panel where all you have to deal with is heat. No shock/vibe, no caustic/acid vapors, no constant thermal shocks from being powered up in -20 degree weather daily. In reality, the typical panel isn't much different than a slightly warm office environment.
Consider this - the keyboard you're typing on has a micro in it. The 1983 vintage IBM PC/AT keyboard had a micro in it. They still work OK. Most of the embedded micros aren't built using heavily sub-micron technologies where there may indeed be extended lifespan issues due to eventual materiel migrations at the molecular level (this is a big issue if you've got a trace that's only a couple of hundred atoms wide!). I've got a mid-70's Casio calculator that still works OK numerically except for a couple of sticky buttons. Computer chips experience what's known as the "infant mortality" curve. There will be a number of very early unit failures, then the number of failing units drops off quickly and the survivors generally last effectively indefinately. In my experience at IBM, lower powered CPU type things (we're not talking scorching hot XEON's or P4's here, just real low wattage stuff) if they're going to fail, will do so well within a month. If the chips makes it past that first month, and its operating temps are kept within spec, its going to last a lifetime.
So, I'd say if people test their AFCI at the end of a month and its still working, then they're good to go for a long time.
Don, baring lightning damage, I fully expect an AFCI to be functional in 20 years. Embedded micros are tough. Do 20 year old GFCI breakers still work? Seriously, I worry more about failed mechanicals in the trip mechanism - its still hard to beat the stupid simplicity of a fuse for opening a circuit on an overload
Cars have had computers under the hoods for decades now doing all sorts of various tasks and that's a lot harsher environment than in a indoor residential panel where all you have to deal with is heat. No shock/vibe, no caustic/acid vapors, no constant thermal shocks from being powered up in -20 degree weather daily. In reality, the typical panel isn't much different than a slightly warm office environment.
Consider this - the keyboard you're typing on has a micro in it. The 1983 vintage IBM PC/AT keyboard had a micro in it. They still work OK. Most of the embedded micros aren't built using heavily sub-micron technologies where there may indeed be extended lifespan issues due to eventual materiel migrations at the molecular level (this is a big issue if you've got a trace that's only a couple of hundred atoms wide!). I've got a mid-70's Casio calculator that still works OK numerically except for a couple of sticky buttons. Computer chips experience what's known as the "infant mortality" curve. There will be a number of very early unit failures, then the number of failing units drops off quickly and the survivors generally last effectively indefinately. In my experience at IBM, lower powered CPU type things (we're not talking scorching hot XEON's or P4's here, just real low wattage stuff) if they're going to fail, will do so well within a month. If the chips makes it past that first month, and its operating temps are kept within spec, its going to last a lifetime.
So, I'd say if people test their AFCI at the end of a month and its still working, then they're good to go for a long time.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
I think expecting an AFCI to detect a high resistance connection out of the gate is asking a bit much. That's not what its primary purpose is. Electrically, there's little difference at the breaker end from a glowing connection or some ordinary resistive load. That it might catch it as it develops into something else is a bonus IMO.
I wonder if anyone has ever thought about making recepticals designed like a sprinkler head or firematic valve on oil tanks? If box temp exceeds some specified value (calibrated sufficiently high, so recepticals in attics don't spontaneously pop), the receptical commits irreversible suicide and goes offline. Detection of poor power quality is a lot easier to implement at the device that is experiencing the situation. Such a receptical might cost a buck rather than the $.39 backstab special though...the builders would fight it to the death
I think expecting an AFCI to detect a high resistance connection out of the gate is asking a bit much. That's not what its primary purpose is. Electrically, there's little difference at the breaker end from a glowing connection or some ordinary resistive load. That it might catch it as it develops into something else is a bonus IMO.
I wonder if anyone has ever thought about making recepticals designed like a sprinkler head or firematic valve on oil tanks? If box temp exceeds some specified value (calibrated sufficiently high, so recepticals in attics don't spontaneously pop), the receptical commits irreversible suicide and goes offline. Detection of poor power quality is a lot easier to implement at the device that is experiencing the situation. Such a receptical might cost a buck rather than the $.39 backstab special though...the builders would fight it to the death
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI Law Suits
But they have not been, hopefully someone else can provide the reference to the study that shows something like a 50% failure rate.
Not busting your chops we are all interested in safety, like I said I thought these would be a great advance in safety.
If these are so promising, why so many areas are dropping the requirement for AFCIs?
Are all these areas grossly misinformed?
Well I would have expected GFCIs to be fairly durable too.
But they have not been, hopefully someone else can provide the reference to the study that shows something like a 50% failure rate.
Not busting your chops we are all interested in safety, like I said I thought these would be a great advance in safety.
If these are so promising, why so many areas are dropping the requirement for AFCIs?
Are all these areas grossly misinformed?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI Law Suits
I did a quick Google search and quickly found a reference for GFCI failure rates.
As Tonyi has said it seems to be related to lightning, but failure is failure no matter what the cause.
Wouldn't AFCIs be at least as sensitive to these transients as GFCIs?
I did a quick Google search and quickly found a reference for GFCI failure rates.
As Tonyi has said it seems to be related to lightning, but failure is failure no matter what the cause.
Wouldn't AFCIs be at least as sensitive to these transients as GFCIs?
EC&M Article that I pulled that from
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
I expect the areas dropping the requirement are experiencing the so-called "false trips" without doing much investigating into why (i.e. sloppy workmanship creating bootleg grounds is a prime offender, and el-cheapo builder special fixtures that are truly defective is another). A SQ-D rep indicated to me some time ago they were receiving "false trip" reports on some super cheap ceiling fans - the fans turned out to be defective and the AFCI was in fact correct and identified the problem.
There's a lot older light fixtures in the field that essentially have a hardwired bootleg ground in them via a bonding strap from the neutral to the fixture housing. Put an AFCI (or GFCI) on a branch with one of these bogus fixtures and you've virtually guaranteed a trip if its been installed in a properly grounded metal box or its mount bracket has been properly grounded. If someone just blindly slaps an AFCI in on old work retrofits without understanding how it works, and evaluating the whole system, they could easily think the thing is a complete crock - when in fact it is telling them somthing is genuinely odd about their wiring. These bonded fixtures aren't necessarily intrinsically dangerous, but if you're going to live in the modern AFCI/GFCI world of completely seperated neutrals and grounds, then they are an issue and the guy doing the installation has to be up on it.
A lot of people hollering "these things don't work" generates a lot of political pressure. People slapping up tract houses don't want to go to the bother of stuffing boxes neatly to avoid bootlegs. Making sure the device is on the right neutral is also critical. If your trim/finish crew isn't the same as the rough crew, its easy for someone to grab the wrong neutral - whoops, that's a guaranteed trip. I'd bet there's still a few misbegotten souls out there trying to wire up singles on multiwire and bitching they're tripping too.
I expect the areas dropping the requirement are experiencing the so-called "false trips" without doing much investigating into why (i.e. sloppy workmanship creating bootleg grounds is a prime offender, and el-cheapo builder special fixtures that are truly defective is another). A SQ-D rep indicated to me some time ago they were receiving "false trip" reports on some super cheap ceiling fans - the fans turned out to be defective and the AFCI was in fact correct and identified the problem.
There's a lot older light fixtures in the field that essentially have a hardwired bootleg ground in them via a bonding strap from the neutral to the fixture housing. Put an AFCI (or GFCI) on a branch with one of these bogus fixtures and you've virtually guaranteed a trip if its been installed in a properly grounded metal box or its mount bracket has been properly grounded. If someone just blindly slaps an AFCI in on old work retrofits without understanding how it works, and evaluating the whole system, they could easily think the thing is a complete crock - when in fact it is telling them somthing is genuinely odd about their wiring. These bonded fixtures aren't necessarily intrinsically dangerous, but if you're going to live in the modern AFCI/GFCI world of completely seperated neutrals and grounds, then they are an issue and the guy doing the installation has to be up on it.
A lot of people hollering "these things don't work" generates a lot of political pressure. People slapping up tract houses don't want to go to the bother of stuffing boxes neatly to avoid bootlegs. Making sure the device is on the right neutral is also critical. If your trim/finish crew isn't the same as the rough crew, its easy for someone to grab the wrong neutral - whoops, that's a guaranteed trip. I'd bet there's still a few misbegotten souls out there trying to wire up singles on multiwire and bitching they're tripping too.
tonyi
Senior Member
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Bob, with modern places being full of all sorts of electronics/computers (and now high-tech computerized breakers
A TVSS is an easy and cheap enough add-on that its not a big deal. Reasonable cost compromise for a place that only had the code minimum AFCI and GFCI stuff. If someone takes a direct hit, they'll be fixing a lot more than a couple of smoked AFCI's anyway
Bob, with modern places being full of all sorts of electronics/computers (and now high-tech computerized breakers
A TVSS is an easy and cheap enough add-on that its not a big deal. Reasonable cost compromise for a place that only had the code minimum AFCI and GFCI stuff. If someone takes a direct hit, they'll be fixing a lot more than a couple of smoked AFCI's anyway
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: AFCI Law Suits
Tony, you and I are more alike then my posts let on, my point has been there are two sides to the AFCI issue but I do not see them going away.
It certainly seems on it's face to be a great idea, I hope that the problems get worked out.
I agree with you that many of the problems of false tripping are installation related.
I am still not sold that they will trip when needed, or that they are durable enough.
The only way I see them improving is by the continued installation of them, unfortunately the customer or contractor is getting stuck paying the bill for this long term testing directly. While the manufacturer's are making great money selling these items as the code requires them.
Take care, Bob
Tony, you and I are more alike then my posts let on, my point has been there are two sides to the AFCI issue but I do not see them going away.
It certainly seems on it's face to be a great idea, I hope that the problems get worked out.
I agree with you that many of the problems of false tripping are installation related.
I am still not sold that they will trip when needed, or that they are durable enough.
The only way I see them improving is by the continued installation of them, unfortunately the customer or contractor is getting stuck paying the bill for this long term testing directly. While the manufacturer's are making great money selling these items as the code requires them.
Take care, Bob
- Status